Air cell moved to the bottom

[Sarah2020]

Impressive. Thanks for sharing.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Are you keeping the two babies together?

 

[Fastfella]

Yes they are fine together

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I believe @Tom recommends separate enclosures as soon as the time comes to move them to their first enclosures from the brooder box.

 

[Fastfella]

I appreciate the recommendation, can I ask why is it recommended?
Ive never had any issues with raising young together given that they have a very spacious enclosure which they have.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I appreciate the recommendation, can I ask why is it recommended?
Ive never had any issues with raising young together given that they have a very spacious enclosure which they have.

Groups of hatchlings is fine, but pairs isn't recommended. Pair dynamics cause stress in tortoises and can result in one of the hatchlings growing slower.

 

[Fastfella]

thank you. anywhere I can read more about it, as to be completely honest this sounds like an opinion rather than an observed tendency. Nevertheless, I will of course take it on board.
Ive done some brief searching online and found no info on troubles when raising 2 hatchlings vs group raising.
As I have mentioned, in the past I had no issues with bringing up 2 hatchlings together in a spacious enclosure.

At the moment the younger one us gaining in the same manner as the older one, I will monitor them and report here if I see any bullying or stunting in growth, hopefully it will not happen.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

thank you. anywhere I can read more about it, as to be completely honest this sounds like an opinion rather than an observed tendency. Nevertheless, I will of course take it on board.
Ive done some brief searching online and found no info on troubles when raising 2 hatchlings vs group raising.
As I have mentioned, in the past I had no issues with bringing up 2 hatchlings together in a spacious enclosure.

At the moment the younger one us gaining in the same manner as the older one, I will monitor them and report here if I see any bullying or stunting in growth, hopefully it will not happen.

Glad to hear you are open to new information! I don't have experience raising hatchlings, so hopefully @Tom or someone else can explain the view.

 

[Fastfella]

I am always open for new suggestions and inspiration, this is how one avoids stagnation in own opinions.
I shall monitor them for now and perhaps when they get older I will separate them to their own quarters

 

[Fastfella]

Today’s update on Marshell and Lint. They have almost a month difference between each other

 

[Fastfella]

a little update on my tortoises.
Marshell is doing well and now around 34g. Lint always looks smaller because of the age difference but he is 23g and chunky. They mainly feed on native weeds. Each of them is a tiny copy of their parents: Marshell looks like mum “Her Fastjesty’’ and Lint is a copy of their dad “Fast Fella” (pardon me, I named them over 30years ago when I was a kid).
I also wanted to comment on warning me over hatching competition and aggression; definitely, you were right! Marshell, rarely “mates” with Lint, I suppose its rather dominant behaviour, but this looks benign, Lint doesn’t stop eating during these displays and shows no aggression back at Marshell. His growth rate is similar to his older sibling and they bask and sleep together.
Soon they will go to extra large enclosure where they can have personal space but rest assured I will continue watching them as a hawk. I dont think that I need to separate them now.
I still want to thank those who drew my attention to hatchling competition behaviour, it is something new Ive learned about tortoises.

 

[COmtnLady]

These aren't hatchling specific, but they are good thoughts on not keeping tortoises in pairs ~

Signs of bullying in young tortoises

'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...

tortoiseforum.org

Why not to keep 2 tortoises together - a lesson learned the hard way

This is a copy/paste of an article I wrote on my blog last year. I've seen several new keepers ask the question of whether they should get a 'friend' for their tortoise, and so rather than keeping on linking to my blog (which feels kinda self-promoting, which is not my intent), I am creating a...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Fastfella]

Dear @COmtnLady,

Thank you for the reply, yes, this makes sense. I will try them in the large enclosure first and separate then if I see any obvious aggression.

Thanks

 

[COmtnLady]

Debbie Downer here:

this makes sense. I will try them in the large enclosure first and separate then if I see any obvious aggression.

Why wait? That's like saying you'll wait to put a coat on until you see a snowflake blow past. They need to be separated. Tortoises are solitary animals. They don't like having other tortoises around. If they can see another one, territorial instincts are aroused. By the time you "see any obvious aggression" its been going on for while.



Did you get this far in this link?
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/signs-of-bullying-in-young-tortoises.188026/page-3

• Oct 3, 2024
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Tortoise Nana​

Member​

JoinedMay 11, 2022Messages49Location (City and/or State)Las Vegas, Nv

Ok, I’ve been fighting this topic of bullying for the last three years. Tom told me that Roll was being bullied by her brother Rock. He could tell by the difference in their sizes. I went to look for Rock & Roll because they didn’t come out to eat, when I called them. After searching, I found that Rock had dug a hole under the root of a small bush. He’s so big that he wedged himself so deep and tightthat he couldn’t get himself out. After trying to dig him out and cutting a 3 inch thick root in 110 degree Las Vegas heat, I was able to get him out. Much to my chagrin, little Roll was squished further down in the hole. Rock had her wedged in and he had been on top of her, smothering her and himself. I’ve finally talked my son into letting me adopt her out. I now see all of the things Tortoise Forum folks & Tom have been saying. He is a huge bully. He’s almost 3X her size. I finally found someone, a friend, with a half acre property, who is going to take Roll today and give her a wonderful new life - all by herself. Thanks so much Forum friends for you advice.

.

 

[Fastfella]

This sounds fair, I will get them separated this weekend then and update the thread

 

[COmtnLady]

 

[Fastfella]

A little update: they are almost yearlings now. Their mother has come out of hibernation, and they are currently being kept in an all-female group. In April, they will be moved to the large garden enclosure.

I did my best to raise them for smooth, flatter shells by feeding infrequently and offering only weeds, with occasional Mazuri LS pellets. They also have access to a damp den, high UVB, and a high-temperature basking area.

 

[Carol S]

Beautiful Russian Tortoises. They should be fed every day.

 

[Fastfella]

Thank you
Unfortunately this ia what most people think but they definitely should not be fed daily.

 

[COmtnLady]

I did my best to raise them for smooth, flatter shells by feeding infrequently and offering only weeds, with occasional Mazuri LS pellets. They also have access to a damp den, high UVB, and a high-temperature basking area.

Flatter shells come from not being baked hot and dry. They should be fed every day, especially young growing ones. Sporadic feeding is some of the old wrong info you will find other places, but not here. The experienced members here have MUCH better outcomes, with higher survival rates, and healthier-overall adults.
@Tom @Yvonne G @zovick



This has some good info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

This is a quote from the above link:

Pyramiding:
This is the subject of many threads in itself. I will simply state here what I know to be true based on my experience, my experiments, conversations with people who live other countries and study tortoises, people who have kept them for decades here in the U.S., and personal observations of thousands of tortoises in all manners of keeping styles.

There are many things listed as causes of pyramiding. I can refute each one with multiple examples. Lack of UV, lack of calcium, too much protein, too much food, the wrong foods, fast growth, wrong temperatures, small enclosures, not enough exercise, indoor housing, etc. None of these factors CAUSES pyramiding. They can all be somehow related to it, but they don't cause it. Simply put: Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This is true for any species of tortoise, even the ones that don't typically pyramid. To prevent pyramiding in temperate species, I use a closed chamber and keep the ambient humidity at 50-80%. I offer a humid hide that holds 95-100% humidity, I soak daily to ensure good hydration, and I spray the carapace with plain water several times a day. I keep them on one of the previously mentioned three substrates that can be kept damp. Babies in the wild stay hidden in leaf litter, root balls, and in other humid protected areas. It makes no sense to keep them in a dry box, with dry substrate, and a hot desiccating bulb overhead in captivity. Allowing them to find or make their own humid microclimates has grown me dozens of smooth healthy temperate tortoises. There are literally thousands of examples of other people succeeding using the same basic philosophy here on this forum. So please, don't keep your tortoise in dry, desert style enclosures. It is not healthy for them. They are not the least bit prone to shell rot, and they DO NOT get respiratory infections from moderate humidity as long as temps are correct, day and night. I don't say these things and come up with these assertions lightly. Its not that I raised one tortoise this way, and everything went okay. I have literally raised dozens of temperate tortoise species this way and had nothing but success. My methods and success rate have been repeated by thousands of tortoise keepers all over the globe. We have more than 10 years of living healthy examples to back up these assertions.

Have you familiarized yourself with this yet?

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

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