Raising a sulcata in central europe

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Arcadia stopped producing and selling their flood bulbs in the US about a year ago. Under US laws, they were deemed illegal and did not comply with regulations as did all other incandescent flood bulbs. So they have been developomg the new Golden Sun to specifically get around the incandescent ban rules in the US. That bulb has been designed and manufactured to comply with US laws. This allowed an incandescent bulb that was indeed legal to sell in the US. I know an executive order was signed recently that overrode the incandescent ban. However, I don't see any suppliers and manufacturers willing to retool and start offering old style incandescent as they are unsure of outcomes on that executive order.

So Arcadia Basking Solar Flood isn't sold in the US?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I would say that at a higher level, if the desired basking temperature is achieved, and the width of that temperatures basking area is considerably wider than the tortoise, it would be OK. However, I would still prefer a flood bulb with a broader dispersal of the same amount of energy. I would seem the gradient going away from the basking zone center would be much more broad and gentle, instead of such a concentrated spot with a more dramatic drop as you move away from the 40° cone. I don't like a big drop in IR in a short space where the tortoise may choose to sit within that differential. Tortoises don't seem to perceive heat on their skin and shell. They respond to their core temperature. I've heard of tortoises walking right up to a burn pile on fire to investigate and having to be pulled away to prevent burns.

With UVB lights and charts, we are looking for the amount of UVB at a very specific wavelength. You can see exactly what you are looking for. With IR, we are looking for effective heat without damaging/curing new keratin. Because of a wide range of effective absorption frequencies of IR, do you know what frequency of IR you are looking for? Just as with UV radiance charts - we know to look only for acceptable levels of 294-300nm. With IR, there is an extremely wide range of wavelengths produced by bulbs. It seem the shorter - the more damaging on the new keratin. Plus the wavelengths that are best absorbed (not penetrated) by cellular tissue will heat the best. Shorter IR - IRA - penetrates best. I don't want that. Penetration damages new keratin quickly I believe. So I always select towards the longest wavelength that will still heat effectively if I am considering minimizing pyramiding effects. When you look at a radiance chart of a bulb, do you know which wavelength ranges are most damaging and which are best absorbed by cellular tissue without excessive damage? The total radiance may produce great heat, but be damaging with more shorter IRA. Skewed towards longer wavelengths, it may indeed produce enough heat, and be much less damaging.

Thank you for the detailed answer! As always, something to learn from you!

A few follow-up questions, if you don't mind:
1. I've seen two parameters defining light beam: beam angle (where at least 50% of lamp output is concentrated) and field angle (angle where remaining 50% are dissipated). In extreme cases, where field angle ~ beam angle (Arcadia PAR38 halogen) there is, indeed, very small spot of concentrated heat, little dependence of heated area diameter on lamp installation height and almost immediate "cut off" of heat outside "beam angle cone". Some of the "intense basking spot" lamps have field angle/beam angle ratio almost identical to flood lamps and at sufficient height should provide similar heat gradient. I guess, we can measure this with a power meter or FLIR or temperature gun. Is it feasible?

2. I expect the IR output curve to be the same for all incandescent lamps (given the same filament temperature). I agree, that power density charts vs UVB irradiance charts are not giving complete picture because we don't have a weighted index (very similar to Solarmeter 6.2 vs Solarmeter 6.5 measurements). However, if IR output curve is the same, we can compare bulbs of different shapes? Or reflector shape can affect the output?

3. I've seen that "penetration" is defined as "depth where 63% of output power is absorbed". In that case, deeper penetration is expected to be better. That's where I get confused. I also understand that penetration depth is very dependent on tissue composition: exposing hip and head to near-IR yield very different results. Skull bones absorb almost 90% of near-IR. Longer wavelengths (at least in microwave band) propagate through hard surfaces much better. Likely, that's why what works for lizards doesn't work for tortoises?

 

[DAANFEMA]

Thank you for the detailed answer! As always, something to learn from you!

A few follow-up questions, if you don't mind:
1. I've seen two parameters defining light beam: beam angle (where at least 50% of lamp output is concentrated) and field angle (angle where remaining 50% are dissipated). In extreme cases, where field angle ~ beam angle (Arcadia PAR38 halogen) there is, indeed, very small spot of concentrated heat, little dependence of heated area diameter on lamp installation height and almost immediate "cut off" of heat outside "beam angle cone". Some of the "intense basking spot" lamps have field angle/beam angle ratio almost identical to flood lamps and at sufficient height should provide similar heat gradient. I guess, we can measure this with a power meter or FLIR or temperature gun. Is it feasible?

2. I expect the IR output curve to be the same for all incandescent lamps (given the same filament temperature). I agree, that power density charts vs UVB irradiance charts are not giving complete picture because we don't have a weighted index (very similar to Solarmeter 6.2 vs Solarmeter 6.5 measurements). However, if IR output curve is the same, we can compare bulbs of different shapes? Or reflector shape can affect the output?

3. I've seen that "penetration" is defined as "depth where 63% of output power is absorbed". In that case, deeper penetration is expected to be better. That's where I get confused. I also understand that penetration depth is very dependent on tissue composition: exposing hip and head to near-IR yield very different results. Skull bones absorb almost 90% of near-IR. Longer wavelengths (at least in microwave band) propagate through hard surfaces much better. Likely, that's why what works for lizards doesn't work for tortoises?

Love your in depths thoughts and how this thread turns out. I guess what I learned first is "reptile lighting" is not the same as "tortoise lighting".
Right now the Exo Terra bulb seems to deliver adequate amounts of heat and power density. I could do some measurements with the ism400 at different spots (so not only in the center of the basking area), or wouldn't that be useful?
As I've said, I'm totally open to switching the bulb again, but see a few problems: the "normal" Arcadia flood bulbs wouldn't be ideal for the higher distance I have between the bulb and the basking space. And I'm quite sure a bulb that is more than 100watts would heat up my closed enclosure too much.
Thanks to all of you who contribute their knowledge and experience!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Love your in depths thoughts and how this thread turns out. I guess what I learned first is "reptile lighting" is not the same as "tortoise lighting".
Right now the Exo Terra bulb seems to deliver adequate amounts of heat and power density. I could do some measurements with the ism400 at different spots (so not only in the center of the basking area), or wouldn't that be useful?
As I've said, I'm totally open to switching the bulb again, but see a few problems: the "normal" Arcadia flood bulbs wouldn't be ideal for the higher distance I have between the bulb and the basking space. And I'm quite sure a bulb that is more than 100watts would heat up my closed enclosure too much.
Thanks to all of you who contribute their knowledge and experience!

Thank you!

I feel that such measurements can be useful. E.g. in 2-3 cm increments from the center. At least, we can estimate basking area size and IR gradient. These are important factors, as Mark pointed out above. Ideally is to compare data to Arcadia Floodlight. Yet it sounds like duplicating power density charts, just less precise.

 

[DAANFEMA]

Hello!
I wanted to show some updates:
As the weather gets warmer here (but still can be cold some days) I tried to build a secure and somewhat climate controlled outdoor enclosure for some outdoor time (1-2h a few times a week right now in spring). It's 206x103cm (81 x 40,5").
The material is an acrylic made by a german company called "Plexiglas Alltop", that is also used for greenhouses.
It's transmissive for >90% of visible light and >80% of UV. It's 2/3" thick and good at insulating heat.
The inside can be heated and controlled by a thermostat.
To avoid the risk of overheating it has an automatic lid opener
that opens at a set temperature.
It is planted with all safe edible weeds and flowers. I hope that this way I can provide a longer outdoor season (only a few hours per week) in spring and autumn at good temps and humidity.

 

[DAANFEMA]

Also redesigned some of the indoor enclosure and did the monthly weigh in. She gained 52 grams or roughly 20% of bodyweight in the last month.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Also redesigned some of the indoor enclosure and did the monthly weigh in. She gained 52 grams or roughly 20% of bodyweight in the last month.

She's nice and smooth...good job!
This is a rescue...Mary Knobbins...I also have a smooth yearling...

 

[Tom]

Also redesigned some of the indoor enclosure and did the monthly weigh in. She gained 52 grams or roughly 20% of bodyweight in the last month.

The shell is looking fantastic. Nicely done. The outdoor enclosure looks pretty fantastic too.

 

[Ray--Opo]

Wow! Great to see it being done the right way.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
I wanted to show some updates:
As the weather gets warmer here (but still can be cold some days) I tried to build a secure and somewhat climate controlled outdoor enclosure for some outdoor time (1-2h a few times a week right now in spring). It's 206x103cm (81 x 40,5").
The material is an acrylic made by a german company called "Plexiglas Alltop", that is also used for greenhouses.
It's transmissive for >90% of visible light and >80% of UV. It's 2/3" thick and good at insulating heat.
The inside can be heated and controlled by a thermostat.
To avoid the risk of overheating it has an automatic lid opener
that opens at a set temperature.
It is planted with all safe edible weeds and flowers. I hope that this way I can provide a longer outdoor season (only a few hours per week) in spring and autumn at good temps and humidity.

Looks great! How did you set up the automated lid? Is it a custom controller or something pre-built?

 

[DAANFEMA]

Looks great! How did you set up the automated lid? Is it a custom controller or something pre-built?

It's prebuilt and commonly used here for keeping Testudo species outdoors year round. I bought it online (website is in german though):

Deckelöffner für Schildkröten-Frühbeete

Deckelöffner für Schildkröten-Frühbeete sind unabdingbar notwendig, da sie vollautomatisch und ohne Stromanschluss ein gefährliches Überhitzen im Inneren des Frühbeets verhindern. Unser automatischer Fensteröffner wurde speziell für Landschildkröten entwickelt. Für ein leichteres Arbeiten am...

xn--schildkrten-yfb.de

 

[DAANFEMA]

Took some solarmeter outdoor readings in the late morning today above and beneath the lid of the coldframe, around 80% UVB going through the material seems to check out.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Took some solarmeter outdoor readings in the late morning today above and beneath the lid of the coldframe, around 80% UVB going through the material seems to check out.

So it's closer to 3.3-3.5 at enclosure ground level? Sounds good.

Did you measure temperature differences daily/nightly?

 

[DAANFEMA]

Yes, it does stay a few degrees warmer during the night even without heating. But I still have to install nighttime heating and a thermostat. But right now my tortoise is still too young to stay outside day and night I think and nights still get cold in April here. So for now I just have her outside for a few ours during the day when the weather is nice. Next project will be installing heating and do more measuring.

So it's closer to 3.3-3.5 at enclosure ground level? Sounds good.

Did you measure temperature differences daily/nightly?

 

[DAANFEMA]

Hello!

I wanted to give an update, now that it's one year with my sulcata. I upgraded the indoor enclosure to an 8x4' greenhouse tent. On the bottom is a raised garden bed and pond liner.

Lighting are two Arcadia T5s for UVB (UVI measured with Solarmeter between 3-5 in the area under the lights), a 100w incandescant bulb, a 70w Philips mastercolour metal halide, 4 150cm fluorescent tubes for ambient lighting incl. UVA and a 250w CHE for nighttime heat.

Substrate is cococoir with a little bit of orchid bark mixed in.

Plants are spider plants and a tortoise seed mix that I was already growing before.

 

[DAANFEMA]

Of course I also want to show the inhabitant of the enclosure. Weight increased nearly tenfold during her first year.

 

[Yvonne G]

Oh man!!! That is SO nice. . . and your baby looks great!!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!

I wanted to give an update, now that it's one year with my sulcata. I upgraded the indoor enclosure to an 8x4' greenhouse tent. On the bottom is a raised garden bed and pond liner.

Lighting are two Arcadia T5s for UVB (UVI measured with Solarmeter between 3-5 in the area under the lights), a 100w incandescant bulb, a 70w Philips mastercolour metal halide, 4 150cm fluorescent tubes for ambient lighting incl. UVA and a 250w CHE for nighttime heat.

Substrate is cococoir with a little bit of orchid bark mixed in.

Plants are spider plants and a tortoise seed mix that I was already growing before.

Thanks for the update! Beautiful tortoise! And it's impressive that you have plants growing nicely in plain coco coir

What tubes do you use for ambient lights?

Why did you decide to use MH lamp over basking zone and move incandescent lamp to another end of the enclosure?

 

[DAANFEMA]

Thanks for the update! Beautiful tortoise! And it's impressive that you have plants growing nicely in plain coco coir

What tubes do you use for ambient lights?

Why did you decide to use MH lamp over basking zone and move incandescent lamp to another end of the enclosure?

Thanks! When I was pre-growing the plants there was a layer of topsoil underneath the cococoir, we'll see how they do now without the topsoil. But if they won't do well, I'll just replace them.

The long tubes are Sylvania activa F172 fluorescent lights (150cm). According to Sarina Wunderlichs research they're one of the only lights that have a balanced amount of visible light and UVA, so they should appear white to tortoise eyes.

As for the placement of the two bulbs, it's just a bit of experimentation as the enclosure is new (set it up yesterday). I had a 35w metal halide in the old enclosure and she really liked sitting under it, so I thought I'll give it a try like this. Could change it up in the future though.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks! When I was pre-growing the plants there was a layer of topsoil underneath the cococoir, we'll see how they do now without the topsoil. But if they won't do well, I'll just replace them.

The long tubes are Sylvania activa F172 fluorescent lights (150cm). According to Sarina Wunderlichs research they're one of the only lights that have a balanced amount of visible light and UVA, so they should appear white to tortoise eyes.

As for the placement of the two bulbs, it's just a bit of experimentation as the enclosure is new (set it up yesterday). I had a 35w metal halide in the old enclosure and she really liked sitting under it, so I thought I'll give it a try like this. Could change it up in the future though.

Thanks for details!

I guess, she preferred sitting under metal-hallide because it's way brighter and "whiter" than incandescent bulbs. If I'm not mistaken, tortoises like some other reptile species seek the brightest spot to bask, not the warmth or UV. So placing an incandescent flood bulb next to the metal hallide can be an ideal basking area combo.

What ballast for the HID lamp do you use? And what T8 fixtures for Sylvania lamps?