Please help. Russian Tortoise not spending time under basking and UVB lamp.

Hello everyone, hope you're all doing well.

I'm trying to work out what's wrong with my Russian tortoise.

Some background information:

We've noticed that in the last 2 to 3 months specially leading up to summer and summer itself here in the UK that our Russian and tortoise isn't spending very much time under his basking lamp and UVB lamp and I'm finding it very difficult to figure out why that is. I'm concerned that he's starting to get ill or we will become ill from lack of exposure to the basking lamp and the UVB lamp.

There were no direct immediate signs of illness, but he is acting slightly lethargic. He tends to get up very early around 5 am when the light comes into the room and we've turned on using smart plugs both the UVB and the heat lamp around that time he'll spend the next few hours roaming around waiting for us to feed him. So he shows very active signs and when we do feed him, there's no obvious sign that he doesn't want to eat or anything like that most of the morning he's very active.

However, after we feed him, he tends to want to sleep the rest of the day he used to do this but after a period of time he'd wake back up and become a bit more active again moving between the hot and cold areas.

We recently invested in a much larger and longer enclosure. The enclosure is 2.4 m long 60 cm high and 60 cm, and in depth. I've attached some photos.

Under the basking lamp is between 33 and 35°C and the cool end we try to keep around 24 but in the summer it goes up to about 27. After he's eaten, he tends to spend his time somewhere in the middle of the cage resting until the next day sometimes rather than travelling between the hot end and cool end so he's not sitting under the lamps very often and I'm worried he's gonna get ill or is ill already. We're going to obviously take him for a checkup but I want to see if anyone on here has an idea about what it might be.

The humidity on the hot end is around 40 and the humidity on the cool end is anywhere between 50 to 60% humidity. For some period of the winter we did have his humidity too low which was something we weren't aware of and he was a bit dehydrated which we fixed through lots of bathing and increasing the humidity but it wasn't until we got a completely closed enclosure with this new one that has been much more stable.

The substrate is cocoa qua and we usually use fine orchid bark on top of that to hold the moisture in but we haven't been able to do that recently as the place we usually buy it from has been sold out and I've been finding it hard to find the exact one online without getting the wrong thing.

We're trying to take him outside every day for real sun, but with our work schedules, it's quite to be quite difficult. When he is outside and he warms up from the real son, he does move around decently, but we have noticed that last summer he really ran around quite quickly and he's not doing that so much anymore.

Overall, his shell looks good and I haven't noticed any more dry skin that he had before during winter when the humidity wasn't right there's no obvious soft patches or anything like that and he's not showing any signs of wheezing or anything like that.

Some theories I have:

Number one he's spending more time in the middle because the temperature is comfortable enough for him to not move between the hot and cool ends. I've tried to make even more of a gradient but it's proving to be quite difficult as it's very hot in the UK at the moment and the middle is staying quite warm we do have a enclosed top, but I tried to take it off sometimes and the cool end can easily get up to 27 in the UK summer at the moment.

Number two is that the hot end is actually too hot. I read something like this online. That means they can often not want to go under there for very long. I'm not sure if this is right.

The UVB sits about 35cm from shell height and basking lamp is about 20cm from shell height. Is this too low perhaps?

Number three is Ill and he's just not behaving as normal.

Number four he'll just get sleepy after eating a meal and doesn't really have the energy afterwards to keep wandering around so just ends up sleeping. We have tried feeding him throughout the day in different locations to mimic more of a natural environment but we haven't noticed any changes and we don't we haven't been doing that all the time.

Number five we thought the issue was lighting at first as the cool end didn't have much light but we installed an Arcadia jungle light down that end which is actually quite a lot brighter than the warm end but that doesn't seem to have done anything sometimes I think that might be too bright and it's confusing him. I've just bought another UVB to install Install instead of the jungle light which is a little bit dimmer and hopefully means he's getting UVB wherever he is and enclosure, but maybe this is the wrong idea.


Sorry, this is a very long read and I very much appreciate greatly anyone that takes the time to read it and respond. I'm definitely worried about the little guy.



PS. He’s between five and six years old and he's called Pedro.
He gets a very varied diet of weeds / flowers from Leafy lunches ( a tortoise food provider) he eats about shell size portion.

P.S.S the central lamp is just there to help the basking spot get up to temp sometimes when it's colder.

I think the UVB lamp is a bit too low. What kind of UVB tube are you using specifically? Let's see what @Alex and the Redfoot would recommend for your enclosure height.

Two UV tubes is not how I would do it. I'd use LEDs on the cooler end.

Your temps and conditions sound ideal. It may just be that once he has a full belly and he's warm, there is no reason to walk about exposing himself to predators.

Hello and welcome!

What you describe, sounds like normal tortoise behaviour to me: he doesn't need to eat, doesn't want to mate - so, basically, no reasons to leave the comfort zone.

What you can try to do:
1. Improve ambient lightning: it should not be "either cold end or warm end". Most area of the enclosure should be brightly lit (with basking area being the brightest). With hides and shaded zones (e.g. under plants) this would be fine.

2. Check what kind of UVB lamp do you have (6%, 12% or 14%, namely Forest, Desert or Dragon). At 35cm above substrate Desert lamps are rather harsh (ideally is to check UV index with Solarmeter). I would not add the second UVB lamp - UV output is additive and it's easy to overdo.

3. I would pack down coco coir (it looks too loose now, so it's drying out quicker and gets dusty).

4. Try to reduce feeding (like simply skip 1-2 days) and watch if it changes his activity levels.

The other enclosure parameters and routines sound perfect. 27C during the day in the cold end is fine. Don't worry about it.

Thanks everyone this is great.

Alex and the Redfoot said:

Hello and welcome!

What you describe, sounds like normal tortoise behaviour to me: he doesn't need to eat, doesn't want to mate - so, basically, no reasons to leave the comfort zone.

What you can try to do:
1. Improve ambient lightning: it should not be "either cold end or warm end". Most area of the enclosure should be brightly lit (with basking area being the brightest). With hides and shaded zones (e.g. under plants) this would be fine.

2. Check what kind of UVB lamp do you have (6%, 12% or 14%, namely Forest, Desert or Dragon). At 35cm above substrate Desert lamps are rather harsh (ideally is to check UV index with Solarmeter). I would not add the second UVB lamp - UV output is additive and it's easy to overdo.

3. I would pack down coco coir (it looks too loose now, so it's drying out quicker and gets dusty).

4. Try to reduce feeding (like simply skip 1-2 days) and watch if it changes his activity levels.

The other enclosure parameters and routines sound perfect. 27C during the day in the cold end is fine. Don't worry about it.

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Thank you for the reply.


Ok erm good to know about being comfortable. Did kinda think along those lines.

1. I think the jungle light I have for the cold end is way too bright, its more than both the heat lamp and UVB, will see how I can change this, maybe a light with dimming settings.

2. It's the D3 Desert UVB one. It's tricky for me to put it higher because the Viperia enclosure I bought has slots for it and there's no room to go higher.

3. Yeah I'm finding it's drying so quickly, so i'm topping up with water more regularly but it drys out fast. I'll def try that now.

4. Ok nice yeah, I'll try that tomorrow. I have noticed if he doesn't eat in the morning he will still just do back to his house and stay there for a while. But maybe a prolonged fast could be a little reset.


UPDATE : I noticed yesterday a slight whistle sound when he breathes when walking around. I thought maybe it was a one off but he did it a few times today. Quite concerning. Might be worth taking him for a check up anyway?

For context, though-out the winter we didn't have the previous enclosure humidity quite right and he got very dry (I thought 30% was acceptable and I also had the hydrometer in the wrong place) until I realised and started bathing him a lot and he got much better but was a bit worried that would come to effect him down the line. Not sure if it's related at all.


Sorry last question : Should we keep trying to take him outside in the sun to help with the UVA/UVB?

Sorry for the constant posting.

Am actually quite concerned now. He looks in good health to me so we didn't question it, but his limbs actually don't seem great. I just noticed they feel a bit soft and weak.

The shell I hard all around and looks good but the front legs in particular seem soft to me. We're going to call the vet Monday morning. But yeah some thing isn't right about the set up.

alex_22 said:

Thank you for the reply.


Ok erm good to know about being comfortable. Did kinda think along those lines.

1. I think the jungle light I have for the cold end is way too bright, its more than both the heat lamp and UVB, will see how I can change this, maybe a light with dimming settings.

2. It's the D3 Desert UVB one. It's tricky for me to put it higher because the Viperia enclosure I bought has slots for it and there's no room to go higher.

3. Yeah I'm finding it's drying so quickly, so i'm topping up with water more regularly but it drys out fast. I'll def try that now.

4. Ok nice yeah, I'll try that tomorrow. I have noticed if he doesn't eat in the morning he will still just do back to his house and stay there for a while. But maybe a prolonged fast could be a little reset.


UPDATE : I noticed yesterday a slight whistle sound when he breathes when walking around. I thought maybe it was a one off but he did it a few times today. Quite concerning. Might be worth taking him for a check up anyway?

For context, though-out the winter we didn't have the previous enclosure humidity quite right and he got very dry (I thought 30% was acceptable and I also had the hydrometer in the wrong place) until I realised and started bathing him a lot and he got much better but was a bit worried that would come to effect him down the line. Not sure if it's related at all.


Sorry last question : Should we keep trying to take him outside in the sun to help with the UVA/UVB?

Click to expand...

1. That's right, JungleDawn is brighter than heat lamp and UVB lamp. Because it outputs way more visible light. And that's the primary reason to add it to the enclosure. Actually, it's a only a fraction of real outdoor sun brightness so it's not harmful. Note: unless you have LumenIZE series JungleDawn LED - don't put it on a dimmer: regular JungleDawn bars are non-dimmable.

2. You can add a meshed cover around the UVB lamp (Arcadia LampGuardPro) to reduce UV output. However, I see two problems there: there are no cutouts for the cover in the enclosure and, more significant, you need a tool to measure UV index. If you can borrow or buy Solarmeter 6.5 to make measurements - that would be great. Chinese meters are cheaper, but, unfortunately, readings are not 100% trustworthy.

On update: whistling is concerning for Testudo species. Yet it could be a because of dry and dusty air, for example. Unless you see other symptoms of a respiratory infection: "sudden" frequent yawns, constantly using shoulder movements to assist breathing and so on - don't be nervous, more likely it's not an RI.

What do you mean by saying that legs are soft and weak? Front leg surface should not be rock-hard like shell is - there is soft tissue over bone. Weakness is easy to test - gently pull front or hind leg, healthy tortoise will easily pull it back out of your hand.

No harm in doing a vet check-up (if the vet is experienced with tortoises). However, you may get completely different care recommendations and offered "just in case" medications like vitamin A shot (which is usually unnecessary for herbivores and needs conservative dosage calculation - I would refrain from this one). A blood biochemistry check (calcium, phosphorus levels) and an X-ray can be useful.

Alex and the Redfoot said:

1. That's right, JungleDawn is brighter than heat lamp and UVB lamp. Because it outputs way more visible light. And that's the primary reason to add it to the enclosure. Actually, it's a only a fraction of real outdoor sun brightness so it's not harmful. Note: unless you have LumenIZE series JungleDawn LED - don't put it on a dimmer: regular JungleDawn bars are non-dimmable.

2. You can add a meshed cover around the UVB lamp (Arcadia LampGuardPro) to reduce UV output. However, I see two problems there: there are no cutouts for the cover in the enclosure and, more significant, you need a tool to measure UV index. If you can borrow or buy Solarmeter 6.5 to make measurements - that would be great. Chinese meters are cheaper, but, unfortunately, readings are not 100% trustworthy.

On update: whistling is concerning for Testudo species. Yet it could be a because of dry and dusty air, for example. Unless you see other symptoms of a respiratory infection: "sudden" frequent yawns, constantly using shoulder movements to assist breathing and so on - don't be nervous, more likely it's not an RI.

What do you mean by saying that legs are soft and weak? Front leg surface should not be rock-hard like shell is - there is soft tissue over bone. Weakness is easy to test - gently pull front or hind leg, healthy tortoise will easily pull it back out of your hand.

No harm in doing a vet check-up (if the vet is experienced with tortoises). However, you may get completely different care recommendations and offered "just in case" medications like vitamin A shot (which is usually unnecessary for herbivores and needs conservative dosage calculation - I would refrain from this one). A blood biochemistry check (calcium, phosphorus levels) and an X-ray can be useful.

Click to expand...

Thank you this it very much appreciated.

On the RI stuff first: He's had one in the past which he bounced back from with injections. He's not doing any yarning and generally looks and moves ok but the long time hiding resting, the whistling and he does do the moving of the shoulder quite a bit but i'll have to monitor that and see.

On the limb softness, something just seems off. His nails don't feel sharp and sturdy anymore, almost a little wobbly and the front legs just feel softer than what i'm remember before. I tested his pull and he is able to get them away but again it feels weaker than before slightly. He also doesn't run around as quickly in the garden when we take him out.

Ok in terms of vet i'll see what they say, it's supposed to be a reptile vet, we just moved to a new place a year ago so it's a new one.


1. Ok great to know thanks. I'm going to shift the LED light down to the middle later when he's sleeping so it doesn't make the cool end too bright anymore.

2. I'm going to buy the meter and measure it then. So you're saying I actually need to reduce the UV output?

Thank you again, this is very helpful.

We are having exceedingly hot weather and the torts will wander to where they want to be. My russian tortoise is in an outside enclosure and spends most of the days in the most shadiest part because of the heat. Regular arm shallow soaks in a high sided container are invaluable as they rarely use the water provided. They are grazers so food should be available all day and cleared away around 6pm and fresh water provided. Enclosure looks nice and roomy.

Sarah2020 said:

We are having exceedingly hot weather and the torts will wander to where they want to be. My russian tortoise is in an outside enclosure and spends most of the days in the most shadiest part because of the heat. Regular arm shallow soaks in a high sided container are invaluable as they rarely use the water provided. They are grazers so food should be available all day and cleared away around 6pm and fresh water provided. Enclosure looks nice and roomy.

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Thank you that is really valuable info.

I never really considered the additional heat, I just thought well it's probably closer to their natural heats. It is a little cooler where I am compared to say London, which is mental.

Can I ask about the food? I've seen some people with food growing in the enclosure and the tortoise just eats when they want like a more natural environment. But Pedro I think would just eat it all in one day haha. I know that's a mechanism they have for survival but worried he'll over eat. So we just feed him in the morn – shell size laid flat of weeds we get from leafy lunches (a tortoise food service).

Any recommendations?

And yes makes sense we're going to up the baths. It's very true he's never once drunk from the water bowl (that i've seen).

alex_22 said:

2. I'm going to buy the meter and measure it then. So you're saying I actually need to reduce the UV output?

Thank you again, this is very helpful.

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You *may* need to reduce UV output: 13" is a "cursed distance" - too close for Desert, 12% lamps and too far for the Forest, 6% lamps.

When using well-tested UV sources (like Arcadia ProT5) in standard settings we can rely on history of measurements of other keepers and guidelines on the packaging and get decent results. However, if anything is of the wall (protective mesh, tilted suspension, black interior plastic etc.) and you'll need a meter to understand the real picture.

And... good luck at the vet!

Ok mate thanks you. I've bought the UV meter, should be here in few days. I'll post the results back on here with some images on the step up if you don't mind.

Not sure how i'm going to increase the height of the light but I'll figure something out. When I was considering using 2 UVB lamps (not anymore) I bought the Pro version which is dimmable so I do have that, perhaps dimming it could work instead...

God bless you guys on here. You're really doing a solid for the tortoise species.

alex_22 said:

Ok mate thanks you. I've bought the UV meter, should be here in few days. I'll post the results back on here with some images on the step up if you don't mind.

Not sure how i'm going to increase the height of the light but I'll figure something out. When I was considering using 2 UVB lamps (not anymore) I bought the Pro version which is dimmable so I do have that, perhaps dimming it could work instead...

God bless you guys on here. You're really doing a solid for the tortoise species.

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Yes, sure, post the results. Solarmeter is a great little thing - brings peace of mind

I understand that you have no room to rise UVB lamp that's why I've suggested to try LampGuard mesh. It's expected to reduce UV by 15% and this could be just what we need (make sure you can return it if things won't work out). LumenIZE T5 lamps are not intended to be dimmed all the time (this, surprisingly, can reduce lamp life span and sometimes they flicker when dimmed - it's just the nature of fluorescent tubes technology).

We always have "Plan B", though: to use Forest, 6% tube and lower it to get an acceptable UV level. It's less optimal in terms of light spread and UV gradients but still an option.

Ok totally understand, i'll buy the LampGuard mesh now.

Seems like everywhere is sold out of the exact 660mm i need so I got the 700m. The light doesn't sit flush against the roof so i'm going to need to probably hang the mesh in front with some hooks and wires.

Reptile vet is also booked for weeks, so having to hope we can get a cancellation soon.

Nothing's ever easy.

Wi'll give you a shout when everything is set up. Many thanks.

Got it. Looking forward for your updates.

Alex and the Redfoot said:

Got it. Looking forward for your updates.

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Hey Alex,

Hope you're well.

Apparently he does have a mild infection. We've been giving him oral anti-biotics and his behaviour has got much better after a few days. He still wants to sleep after he eats for quite a bit of the day, but he's sleeping under near lamp more than hiding and he's very active before food in the morning.

The vet suspected it was due to my enclosure not having enough airflow and that I should build vents into the sides to help air move down the enclosure, so i'm going to attempt to do that today. In the mean time we've been keeping the top half off and opening the doors more.

I wanted to ask though :

1. Do you think with vents on the sides we can keep the roof on full time?

Really struggle to get the humidity on the basking side above 30%. The coir at the bottom stays damp but the top layer turns to dust very quick when the roof is off. My partner suspected the plants were stealing the water from the soil, but we put them there to encourage him to bask by staying hidden.


2. Would you be able to help me understand these UV readings and what I should do next?

I've attached some images of the reading I was taking and looked up online how it works but the reading change so drastically with slight movements. I tried to aim up at the light from different locations, but had to stay angled because of the distance.

Directly under the UVB lamp is around 4.6-5 but he never really sits there. Under the basking lamp it drops to 1.4 and in-between the two it's around 3 which said it was the right number online.

I'm not sure if i'm getting these reading right though...

Maybe I should dig down a little in the soil so I can get my hand further down, i think the sensor is probably too high up for his shell height.

Cheers,
Alex

alex_22 said:

Hey Alex,

Hope you're well.

Apparently he does have a mild infection. We've been giving him oral anti-biotics and his behaviour has got much better after a few days. He still wants to sleep after he eats for quite a bit of the day, but he's sleeping under near lamp more than hiding and he's very active before food in the morning.

The vet suspected it was due to my enclosure not having enough airflow and that I should build vents into the sides to help air move down the enclosure, so i'm going to attempt to do that today. In the mean time we've been keeping the top half off and opening the doors more.

I wanted to ask though :

1. Do you think with vents on the sides we can keep the roof on full time?

Really struggle to get the humidity on the basking side above 30%. The coir at the bottom stays damp but the top layer turns to dust very quick when the roof is off. My partner suspected the plants were stealing the water from the soil, but we put them there to encourage him to bask by staying hidden.


2. Would you be able to help me understand these UV readings and what I should do next?

I've attached some images of the reading I was taking and looked up online how it works but the reading change so drastically with slight movements. I tried to aim up at the light from different locations, but had to stay angled because of the distance.

Directly under the UVB lamp is around 4.6-5 but he never really sits there. Under the basking lamp it drops to 1.4 and in-between the two it's around 3 which said it was the right number online.

I'm not sure if i'm getting these reading right though...

Maybe I should dig down a little in the soil so I can get my hand further down, i think the sensor is probably too high up for his shell height.

Cheers,
Alex

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Hello!

I'm glad you've caught up the infection early. Starting with per-oral antibiotic course is a bit unusual (I think, Baytril is used this way and it has rather "harsh" side-effects). I doubt that lack of airflow was the culprit: a lot of tortoises are raised in "closed chambers" with next-to-none ventilation and are healthy. Low temperatures can be a viable reason, though. I would love to see an explanation from the vet how stale air causes infections.

I see no harm in adding vents, some airflow can be beneficial (to prevent mold, mostly). Leave an option to adjust the airflow, though. Vents on different height on opposite sides work best (e.g. cold side on the bottom/basking side on top or under front doors/back wall, near ceiling). I should note that you do significant air exchange when open enclosure for daily chores (feeding, spot cleaning and such). Plants surely "pump" water from the bottom and transpire it, however it's a good thing: it rises ambient himidity and reduces risk of waterlogging the substrate.

2. About UV readings: there is a chance that basking lamp dome shadows UV light from UVB bar (you can confirm by moving the meter to the left or to the right of basking lamp and look if levels increase). When taking measurements the meter should be pointed to the middle of the UV source. T5 tubes need about an hour to fully warm up and show stable peak readings (maybe, less than an hour.. I can't find the reference at the moment).

The numbers under the tube look OK to me. Check the label on the tube itself (make sure it's off before getting closer!) - does it read Desert, 12% or Forest, 6%?

Yeah fair enough. Maybe it was from the temps. Yeah thanks, i'll do the air vents as you mention anyway.

1. With the substrate, how damp should the coir under the orchid bark be? Or should it just be as damp as it needs to be to reach the correct ambient humidity. I'll def need to keep the roof on if I want the humidity to be in the correct range. Yeah you're right, plants should be creating more ambient humidity.

It must be the climate here in the UK at the moment making it worse, it's very dry atm, we've got a hose pipe ban and all the grass is going yellow.

At the moment i'm pouring water into the substrate every few days and misting every morning and can't break above 30% on basking side. Giving him a bath every two days as well.

2. Ok i'll re-check the readings shortly when i'm home.

He's kinda gone back to sleeping all day after a very active morning. I moved one of his hides away from the basking end so at last when he sleeps near there he has the lamp and UV on his shel

Ah i'll re-post when I look at the bulb but i'm 99% sure it's a 12% desert. I've never bought a forest bulb.