A question that's been rattling around in my head for the last few days...

[Terry Allan Hall]

Note in this pic of my "herd" that two are noticably darker and two are noticably lighter, and that the two dark ones look very similar to each other, just as the two lighter ones look very similar to each other...

L to R: Jennifer, Apollonia, Ptolemy, Ophelia​

Might I assume that the darker ones originated in the more northernly part of the E. Hermann's range, and the lighter ones in the more southernly part?

 

[dmmj]

You know what happens when you assume don't you?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

You know what happens when you assume don't you?

Santa leaves me sulcata poo in my stocking?

 

[GBtortoises]

Not necessarily. Are any or all of them captive born?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Not necessarily. Are any or all of them captive born?

Jennifer, maybe...the other 3 I'm pretty sure were recently gathered (WC).

 

[N2TORTS]

Terry , Great question and worth the “ rattle” . We all can assume , read , and talk about the different regions torts of the same species may occupy. And while yes it makes since to think contributing factors, such as type of sunlight, diet of local species of plants , overall color of landscape and geology, this is why they look different. I would myself would more lean towards a “genetic” trait rather than “ just the area they are found” . But this also can lead to one saying yes … because of those gene lines , staying consistent within “ that group” found “ within that area” would have a greater success of survival , although the exact same species , would have different coloring, size and even breeding habits because of the different locations.

JD~​

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry , Great question and worth the “ rattle” . We all can assume , read , and talk about the different regions torts of the same species may occupy. And while yes it makes since to think contributing factors, such as type of sunlight, diet of local species of plants , overall color of landscape and geology, this is why they look different. I would myself would more lean towards a “genetic” trait rather than “ just the area they are found” . But this also can lead to one saying yes … because of those gene lines , staying consistent within “ that group” found “ within that area” would have a greater success of survival , although the exact same species , would have different coloring, size and even breeding habits because of the different locations.JD~​

That's pretty much my thinking, as well.

 

[GBtortoises]

Terry-JD took the words right out of my mouth! Excellent post.

I would also add that with most captive born Hermann's and Greek subspecies attempting to determine wild geographical origin based on coloration, pattern or size is very inaccurate to the level of being pointless. The reason for this is because over the years animals have been collected from various areas in the wild. In captivity almost all of them have been "mixed and matched". Tortoises from different geographical locations have been bred with each other to produce offspring that carry the characteristics of both. Add to this the fact that Eastern Hermann's and Ibera have been bred in captivity for generations now, diluting the characteristics of the originals even more. Dalmatian Hermann's have been interbred (in most cases unknowingly) with Easterns for several decades also. As have some Westerns with Easterns. Middle Eastern Greeks were originally being imported as Ibera, further adding to the confusion. Even now, the Middle Eastern Greeks that are being imported are being sold as just "Greeks" and may be from any number of different areas within their range in the wild.

 

[egyptiandan]

Have we ID'd your Hermanns as being T.h.boettgeri? Most of the imported Hermanns in the last 7 or 8 years have been T.h.hercegovinensis with just a few T.h.boettgeri mixed in.
Might be worth posting plastron pictures of everyone just to find out.

Danny

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry-JD took the words right out of my mouth! Excellent post.

I would also add that with most captive born Hermann's and Greek subspecies attempting to determine wild geographical origin based on coloration, pattern or size is very inaccurate to the level of being pointless. The reason for this is because over the years animals have been collected from various areas in the wild. In captivity almost all of them have been "mixed and matched". Tortoises from different geographical locations have been bred with each other to produce offspring that carry the characteristics of both. Add to this the fact that Eastern Hermann's and Ibera have been bred in captivity for generations now, diluting the characteristics of the originals even more. Dalmatian Hermann's have been interbred (in most cases unknowingly) with Easterns for several decades also. As have some Westerns with Easterns. Middle Eastern Greeks were originally being imported as Ibera, further adding to the confusion. Even now, the Middle Eastern Greeks that are being imported are being sold as just "Greeks" and may be from any number of different areas within their range in the wild.

An excellent point...while I don't know for sure about Jennifer, the other three are wild caught (according to the source).

Have we ID'd your Hermanns as being T.h.boettgeri? Most of the imported Hermanns in the last 7 or 8 years have been T.h.hercegovinensis with just a few T.h.boettgeri mixed in.
Might be worth posting plastron pictures of everyone just to find out.

Danny

Ptolemy

Apollonia

Ophelia and Jennifer

Cell-phone pics (daughter is off w/ the real camera)...hope these help

 

[GBtortoises]

Tough to tell by the pics posted. The key features are obvious in the photos. Very much taking a guess (which I shouldn't do), just based on what I can see the male is probably an Eastern. The middle female possibly a Dalmatian. The female on the left in the third photo possibly a Dalmatian and the female on the right probably an Eastern. I may be completely off, just going by what I can see. Better photos will be more definitive.

 

[Tom]

I didn't realize things in the Hermanni world were in such a state.

I'm glad you posted this Terry. Everyday is an education on this site.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Tough to tell by the pics posted. The key features are obvious in the photos. Very much taking a guess (which I shouldn't do), just based on what I can see the male is probably an Eastern. The middle female possibly a Dalmatian. The female on the left in the third photo possibly a Dalmatian and the female on the right probably an Eastern. I may be completely off, just going by what I can see. Better photos will be more definitive.

When my daughter gets back with the good camera, I'll put up better pics.

I didn't realize things in the Hermanni world were in such a state.

I'm glad you posted this Terry. Everyday is an education on this site.

And never a dull moment!

Ironically, the source for Ophelia, Apollonia and Ptolemy charges more for Dalmations than for Easterns.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

OK, finally got some better pics of my herd's tum-tums...

top: Ptolemy, Apollonia
bottom: Ophelia, Jennifer

 

[GBtortoises]

Terry-The top two and the bottom left are definitely Eastern Hermann's. The bottom right appears to be a Dalmatian but it's tough to say for certain by the photo. The photo is fine, just the tortoises angle in it. Does she have the same inguinal scutes at the bridge of the carapace and plastron as the rest do? They are the very small, triangular scute just in front of the rear legs where the carpace and plastron meet. Easterns always have this scute but so do a small percentage of Dalmatians. The majority of Dalmatians do not have this scute on either one side or neither side. In other words if the scute is present it is still not necessarily the defining characteristic that the tortoise is a Dalmatian, just one of the characteristics. Scute seam shape between the pectoral and femoral along with carapace shape, head shape, coloration and scalation are also identifying features that distinguish Dalmatians from Easterns.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry-The top two and the bottom left are definitely Eastern Hermann's. The bottom right appears to be a Dalmatian but it's tough to say for certain by the photo. The photo is fine, just the tortoises angle in it. Does she have the same inguinal scutes at the bridge of the carapace and plastron as the rest do? They are the very small, triangular scute just in front of the rear legs where the carpace and plastron meet. Easterns always have this scute but so do a small percentage of Dalmatians. The majority of Dalmatians do not have this scute on either one side or neither side. In other words if the scute is present it is still not necessarily the defining characteristic that the tortoise is a Dalmatian, just one of the characteristics. Scute seam shape between the pectoral and femoral along with carapace shape, head shape, coloration and scalation are also identifying features that distinguish Dalmatians from Easterns.

As best I can tell, all four are Testudo hermanni boettgeri, which is fine, as I bought all as Testudo hermanni boettgeri.

And in about a week, quarrantine ends and they can all live in the same enclosure.

 

[egyptiandan]

Gary if you make the picture full size than click on it again you can get it HUGE and see all the details.

I agree with Gary, just a little more strongly

Ptolemy--T.h.boettgeri
Appollonia--T.h.boettgeri
Ophelia--T.h.boettgeri
Jennifer--T.h.hercegovinensis

Danny

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Gary if you make the picture full size than click on it again you can get it HUGE and see all the details.

I agree with Gary, just a little more strongly

Ptolemy--T.h.boettgeri
Appollonia--T.h.boettgeri
Ophelia--T.h.boettgeri
Jennifer--T.h.hercegovinensis

Danny

It's possible that Jennifer might be a boettgeri/hercegovinensis mix of some sort, not necessarily 50/50, though.

The other three are wild caught while she is cb/b.

Thanks, Dan & Gary.

 

[GBtortoises]

I had a slow connection when I first looked at the photo and didn't want to wait for it to enlarge. Now that I have. I strongly agree with Dan agreeing with me!