Another brumation question

[millipede]

I'm new to that word. New to this site. I plan on reading through pages here, but feel it's necessary and wise to ask a question.

So, we have a three-toed box turtle. We caught it(rescued) some weeks ago. We've been keeping it outdoors.
Before I get into the story, I'll start with the question.
We dug a hole over a foot deep and filled the dirt and soil back in so it would be easier to dig. We started a hole for this guy too, and he's used it. But, he has not gone down far.
His shell is still showing. He has done this several nights, but, it's already 32°F outside right now and will hit 18°F by 6 AM.
1. Is he okay just as is for now? It will warm up to the 70's later this week. 40's tomorrow.
2. Should we add some loose soil and some straw or leaf litter over him?
3. Should we bring him inside ASAP?

This turtle has never been an indoor pet(to my knowledge) and is wild. I live in Arkansas, and if anyone wants, I can show you the laws regarding this. We can legally keep up to 6 if we wanted. I'd prefer him to be an outside pet, but I'd be willing to bring him in if necessary. We have limited space inside, but it would be better than freezing to death.

There's no shortage of these turtles around here, and in the fall, you see a lot of them crossing the road. This guy was crossing, and our first plan was to move him in the direction he was headed.
STEEP hill, like real steep where he was going, but I told my son(who was holding it) that this was his territory, I'm sure he'd have somewhere to go... pretty sure. Sure was steep.
BUT...
Then my son pointed out, this guy was missing a front foot. Some shell damage as well. Old injury, was healed up well. But the foot is gone, so he only has toes and claws on one leg, which, maybe a problem for digging?
In the time we've had him, he has eaten fairly well. Seems healthy.
I'm just wanting to make sure he doesn't die. We figured(right or wrong, not sure) he'd be better off in our wild yard in a nice enclosure than out in the wild.
We're setting up an area, planning on 10' x 10' with metal doing down about a foot and then something like chicken wire over a frame with a door so we can go in but predators wont.
He's in something a little smaller right now but well protected.
Other than the fact that he didn't dig down very far.

I'm chatting with someone on facebook, and we're thinking it might be okay to cover him up a bit for the night.
My main concern is the 18°F and his not being fully covered.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

@mark1 can probably help you.

 

[Tom]

1. Is he okay just as is for now? It will warm up to the 70's later this week. 40's tomorrow.
2. Should we add some loose soil and some straw or leaf litter over him?
3. Should we bring him inside ASAP?

1. Not okay. He needs is it cold but not too cold.
2. No. Brumating outside, subject to the whims and torment of Mother Nature, is a good way to kill them. Your back yard is not the wild, and the turtle can't necessarily do what it would do out in the wild. You have to help it.
3. If its below freezing outside, yes.

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[mark1]

my opinion is what you just been told isn't correct...... this box turtle has never been inside , i wouldn't bring him in, but then i know what he needs........... as long as he's in a spot that doesn't flood, and drains well, throw a 2 feet deep, about 5foot by 5foot pile of leaves over him, leave him do what he wants. make sure he can find water if he comes back out.......

i live in northeast ohio, we got winter this week, and fall again next week i've never seen the weather harm a reptile provided they had access to what they need..... you just have to know what they need....

i've never seen a box turtle dig in the ground any deeper than a couple inches, that's with leaf cover over the ground they are dug into.... our frost line is 42", we regularly get a week or two of sub zero weather every winter....

it may be, but i doubt your weather is more extreme than it is here , your back yard can be the best of the wild, mine is........ your house can never be as good as the wild, a fridge is definitely not the wild..... i've hibernated box turtles in my backyard since 2000, probably averaged about 10 turtles, so i don't know how you look at that, i've done it only 24X or 240 turtle years of hibernating them in my backyard., we've had some brutal winters over that timeframe.... the only way i ever seen one die over our winter was freezing to death because she got locked in a box with a floor...... i've seen sick turtles hibernate and come out in the spring better or no sicker......

our weather right now

ground temperature right now

ground temperature last january, i had 3 baby box turtles hibernating in this

 

[millipede]

I appreciate all the advice and perspective.
I had been in private conversations with someone on Facebook who told me some similar things, sharing both thoughts that I see above.
A few bits of info.
My backyard is the wild. 5 acres of unkempt land. No lawn. (I don't keep up... ) This is a wild turtle from just a couple miles away. Same habitat.

The "warnings" I was getting said it should be buried 12" at least. I was told with soil, I didn't realize that leaf litter could be enough. We did bury him fairly good with leaf litter on one of the colder evenings.
However... Even in our pre dug hole, after several cold nights where his shell was still quite visible, we chose to bring him inside.
Average winters in Arkansas aren't tooooooo bad... but, we get crazy fluctuations often enough. I know at least one year we had -20°F one morning... one year we had such a cold snap, it killed off a LOT of wild birds... eastern bluebirds and more.
If this guy can't hide well enough, we are just too worried.
I can't help but wonder if his foot makes it harder. Another reason we're keeping him inside. I'll attach a photo of Stanley... his left front foot is missing... no toes there. His right foot is intact. You can see he has some past shell damage as well. We've had him in the yard since October 1st, I believe, and only took him in last night.
I will likely start another post to ask some questions about setup. We have done a LOT of reading and my son(an adult) is very prepared to take good care.
We cut a 275 water storage tank on its side... it's about 38" x 45" and either 16 or 18 inches high. Taking up way more room than I'd like in our kitchen... HA

We don't have a good enough outdoor enclosure set up yet... When that's done, in the Spring at least, we may find him a girlfriend, and if things are looking good enough, perhaps will let him brumate next winter.
But we're feeling he'll do better inside with us for now.

I trust what you're saying Mark... We just don't have things setup good enough for him right now, and, I'm not 100% convinced a pile of leaves is enough with how poorly he's been digging. The cage we have, temporarily, outside is probably smaller than what he's in right now in the house.
Long to do list so I haven't gotten the big enclosure that we want started yet.
I like your setup. Feel free to swing by and help build something here. HA.
Side note/question... do you have anything over it, or is it just fences?
Online advice suggests cover to keep predators out, like raccoons and such... and we have a LOT of raccoons and other things. Bobcats... who knows what else. Thought about at least putting chicken wire over the top. Kind of tempted to build one of our rabbit pens on the side of his enclosure and then the kids could go in with the turtle and let a bunny hop around without having a chance to escape. Ha...

 

[mark1]

nothing wrong with not hibernating a temperate turtle, being a wild turtle may be a different story....... some wild turtles do not adjust well to captivity/change, even captive turles do not take change well.... i've let turtles dig in and start hibernating on their own, dug them up before we got to where i wouldn't be able to get them, woke them or put them in a fridge.......

extreme temperature/weather fluctuation are normal for every temperate region in the world.....

plenty of reliable information on eastern box turtle hibernation, peer reviewed published studies in scientific journals by passionate well educated people.......... whoever told you they need to be at least 12" deep i can assure you they cannot verify that claim with anything beyond heresay..... here's one paper i just pulled up of the web easily, you could download it off "ResearchGate" for free..... there's more of this out there than you would want to read , they all validate each other, and my personal experience....... there are advantages to not digging down too deep...... ground freezes from the top down and thaws from the top and bottom to the middle....

Hibernation in the Eastern Box Turtle, Terrapene c. carolina September 1991Journal of herpetology 25(3):334

predators, i have a family of raccoons living in my yard , electric wires seem to work fine ..... since my last dog passed away, my yard has become a wildlife sanctuary.... raccoons, possums, groundhogs, squirrells, chipmunks, deer, cats, anything that can jump, dig under, fit through or climb a fence .... i can tell you for sure dogs work, when i had my dogs my yard was absolutely clear of any wildlife..... between electric wires and lots of natural cover i lose nothing... even without electric wires they know what to do to not become somethings dinner..... i've had turtles hide in 8'x6' pens that i absolutely could not find, only to have them pop up a week later......

the water hibernating turtles are work to hibernate , they demand attention over the entire winter here...... the ground hibernating turtles are zero worry to me, only thing i ever do is throw a tap over the leaves brown side up, silver side down when we get a stretch of 0F temps without snow cover......

how deep do you think this guy could possibly dig? was the lost foot recent, since after last winter?