Are the "old ways" really bad?
- Thread starter Jacqui
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dmmj said:
Well what else would they taste like?
Carl, Tell me more about #5. Which species is this a problem for? I have found sulcatas to be exceptionally resistant to shell rot, but I am also in the desert. Is this an issue for sulcatas in FL and other humid climates? Logic, based on how they live in the wild, tells me that it really shouldn't be prone to shell rot, however, the sulcata book I've just been reading does mention that they abandon old burrows and excavate new ones from time to time...
I know of CDTs that have used the same self dug burrows for years, likewise with no problems.
Also, "bio-active" substrates have been gaining popularity. I'm wondering if the dirt eventually establishes enough beneficial bacteria to balance out all the waste products. Sort of like a fish tank and its biological filter...
Educate me. Hit me with your knowledge and experience.
I know of CDTs that have used the same self dug burrows for years, likewise with no problems.
Also, "bio-active" substrates have been gaining popularity. I'm wondering if the dirt eventually establishes enough beneficial bacteria to balance out all the waste products. Sort of like a fish tank and its biological filter...
Educate me. Hit me with your knowledge and experience.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Tom said:
Tom,
The species of tortoise that I have seen a lot of fungal issues with after spending long periods of time in communal hides are, elongateds, red-footed, leopards, radiateds, greeks and hermanni. It probably occurs with all species but these are the ones I've seen the problem with myself. The shell rot/fungal problems were in situations where the keeper had built some sort of permanent shelters for their animals to retreat to. In every case though there were several (or more) animals going into the shelter each night for months on end and in most cases, for years. The bedding material in these hides was sometimes hay or cypress mulch but usually after a period of time it would be reduced to just plain dirt. The most commonly seen issue was moderate to heavy fungal infestations with virtually every tortoise sharing the shelter being affected to one degree or another.
But the problem came, not from building a shelter for the tortoises, but rather from leaving the same substrate in place and never changing it or never moving the shelter. So I build my shelters so that they can be picked up and moved to a 'fresh' location every couple of weeks.
While you may not see shell fungus in sulcatas in California that is not the case in Florida. Sulcatas will get fungus just like any other tortoise here.
Regarding native burrowing species in the U.S., gopher tortoises are prone to fungus depending on the location of their burrow and rainfall. Sometimes wild gopher tortoises are found with fungus all over their carapace and plastron. But don't forget, while gopher and desert tortoises may live in the same burrow for years at a time, there is usually only a single animal inhabiting that burrow. So the commensals living down there with the tortoise can keep up with the waste.
Hit you with my knowledge and experience? Ha!, how about my size 13 shoe?
While I have no personal experience, a tegu breeder in FL told me he couldn't dig down two feet at his place unless he wanted a pond. He told me this when I was telling him about my underground boxes. He also told me how wood will rot there in a very short period of time. Just the opposite of here. Our water table is at 428 feet. Burying wood in the ground here is a good way to preserve it and protect it from the "elements".
I wonder what effect all this will have on tortoise shells in burrows with dirt floors.
I wonder what effect all this will have on tortoise shells in burrows with dirt floors.
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Around here the gopher tortoises burrows are pretty much in white sand. I imagine that keeps the fungus at bay a bit
EKLC said:
Yeah, around here, its mostly dry dirt and sand.
Jacqui, I can understand your frustration, and I think the underlying cause of your frustration might be the generalities and blanket statements. It leaves a lot to personal interpretation, and of course, we all don't interpret things the same. So, what is general and normal to one tortoise keeper, might be something totally different to another. But with that said, we all take different approaches on the forum and no one's is better than the other, just some of us would like a little more clarification, which is a matter of personal preference.
After reading over this thread I feel a lot better as I had also taken exception to bashing of the "old ways". As you know we have raised smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate which, I guess, is an "old idea". Our dry substrate certainly wasn't rabbit pellets (don't even think I've ever said 'rabbit pellets' until now), and we gave them plenty of water, so they weren't ever given the chance to dehydrate. I'm glad for the clarification here.
After reading over this thread I feel a lot better as I had also taken exception to bashing of the "old ways". As you know we have raised smooth healthy tortoises on dry substrate which, I guess, is an "old idea". Our dry substrate certainly wasn't rabbit pellets (don't even think I've ever said 'rabbit pellets' until now), and we gave them plenty of water, so they weren't ever given the chance to dehydrate. I'm glad for the clarification here.
Neal said:
That is exactly what I was saying. Blanket statements just do not work well, in my opinion. It's like saying fruit, when I really only mean lemons.
Jacqui said:
I definitely agree with you on this. If you create rules and draw lines in the sand with broad strokes, so to speak, you may overlap some good principles.
But, I do also understand why people would not want to bombard a newbie with all the specifics, it's just I don't think specifics with good tortoise husbandry are particularly cumbersome to begin with.
Again, just a matter of personal perspective and is not to say that my perspective is any better.
Neal said:
Coming from former experience in a LPS, I think you pretty much HAVE to be specific with newbs, for several reasons. If you only offer advice in broad, vague terms, it will likewise be interpreted in a broad fashion, sometimes incorrectly, with possibly detriment to the animal's health. If the person is assertive enough, they will continue to ask questions and you'll have to be more specific anyway. My experience is to provide them with a buttload of information from the getgo, and they have plenty of data to choose from.
dmmj said:
Yes. That's the point Jacqui is trying to make. If we're talking about specifically about lemons, it would be unhelpful and likely inaccurate for her to make a "blanket statement" about all fruit that may not actually be true for all fruit, only lemons.
Likewise, if we're talking about the "old way" of keeping baby sulcatas in hot, dry habitats with alfalfa pellets for substrate and no water, and fed only lettuce...an example of a blanket statement would be that ALL old ways of keeping tortoises is bad. I think we know that's not necessarily true. There are many specific practices that been used for decades and still work well for many keepers and their tortoises. That's Jacqui's point: just because it is a so-called "old way" doesn't mean its obsolete or wrong to do.
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