baby torts are WAY WAY WAY more carnivorous than we'd like to think.

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Balboa

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SO here's my thinking, and sorry if its been covered ad naseum.
We all know we've been doing it wrong for years. We take this baby tort and give it an environment and diet similiar to how we observe adults of its species to live and then wonder why it grows deformed and unhealthy.

We've all realized we had the environment wrong, baby torts live in an entirely different micro-environment from adults. In moist burrows, under logs etc.. Tom and Terry (and many others) have shown that by maintaining moist conditions AND high temps pyramiding can be eliminated. We've all seen the austrian study that indicates diet plays almost no roll in pyramiding (still likely cause or role player for MBD).

If we take this realization a step farther and consider diet available where the babies live, there isn't much leafy green plant matter available. That grows out in the open, under the hot drying sun, in full view of predators. What is available? Ever looked under a log? Loads and loads of bugs. Maybe some mushrooms and roots. Deep in those burrows, baby rodents, maybe other reptile egg nests. Babies can't bask for D3, they'd get eaten, so where do they source D3? Other animals.

A high protein diet has loads of energy and amino acids for rapid GROWTH and nervous system developement, to get them big and out in the open where the "healthier" eats are. By staying hydrated in humid environments they can likely deal with the rich foods they're eating, they just can't handle it when baked and dehydrated, trying desperately under that heat lamp to get some D3 that's lacking in their diet.

We'd all love to picture our babies living in bountiful, sunny fields of luscious leafy greens contentedly grazing away as their natural place. The harsh reality is, that's not natural. The ugly truth is likely that our babies are killing machines with blood dripping from their jaws in dark nasty places.

That's not to say that lots of leafy greens and sunshine is unhealthy for our babie torts, just not natural and not what they are programmed to accept. It also requires much greater effort to ensure proper nutrition as opposed to a natural diet.

Someone really should just take the time to do some darn studies :)
 

terryo

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This is very interesting.
What you are saying is very true about box turtles that come from a forest type enviorament, but I really know nothing about tortoises.
 

DeanS

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It makes sense...babies need to stay underground so they don't end up on someone's menu. Burrows aren't exclusive and if they come across some pinkies, bugs, slugs...you name it...it's fair game!
 

Az tortoise compound

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I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
Looking forward to Africa,
 

J. Ellis

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Playing the Devil's Advocate (my favorite role!)

While some tortoises may be more capable of finding meat-meals in their natural environment (I'm thinking along the lines of forest dwelling species) what about the ones living in the deserts? This is also assuming that they have the speed and coordination to eat these bugs. Heck, I've seen mine miss a piece of opuntia 5-10 times. Now compared to a gecko or a lizard of similar environment I honestly think that they would be hardpressed to catch and eat any bug... Little baby mice/rats/birds, now that's another story.
 

Balboa

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Az tortoise compound said:
I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
Looking forward to Africa,

LOL wouldn't we all love to do that study. To be honest, I'm astonished that we know so little about the natural life of baby torts. I'd think some scientist somewhere at sometime MUST have tried, yet I find nothing on research.

*I realized I should also add a little caveat. I'm NOT proposing that someone should all of a sudden start feeding their baby sully massive quantities of worms or something. I am saying that a controlled study should be done by people qualified to do so. I'd hate to see someone harm their little tort, as I'm sure results could be disastrous without proper precautions.*

randomellis said:
Playing the Devil's Advocate (my favorite role!)

While some tortoises may be more capable of finding meat-meals in their natural environment (I'm thinking along the lines of forest dwelling species) what about the ones living in the deserts? This is also assuming that they have the speed and coordination to eat these bugs. Heck, I've seen mine miss a piece of opuntia 5-10 times. Now compared to a gecko or a lizard of similar environment I honestly think that they would be hardpressed to catch and eat any bug... Little baby mice/rats/birds, now that's another story.

yup, the devils advocate is appreciated!

Even in the desert, or rather especially in the desert, baby torts live in the ground.

As to speed, I've thought about the same thing, and yes for adults out in the open, most prey is far too fast for torts, so they give up on trying, and grass is plentiful and doesn't run away. Bugs and creepy crawlies in dark places are a little different. there tends to be nowhere to run to for one thing, and most of them don't bother. If you flip a log at night, most of the critters don't scurry away. You can reach right down and pick them up. I think they rely more on massive scale reproduction than avoidance as a survival mechanism.

In a burrow a tort is an ideal apex predator. They're heavily armored to fend off the attacks from any protective mothers and most can dig after fleeing prey.
 

J. Ellis

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They may be heavily armored but even if I go into a warzone in a M-1 Abrams Tank, without any ammo I'm still in trouble! That still doesn't touch upon the subject of aim. Maybe if they stumbled across a rat/moujse nest with sleeping babies, sure I could see them trying to bite on of them.. but considering the size of some of the smaller tortoises wouldn't an average size rat/mouse baby be too much of a mouthful?
 

Balboa

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hmmm
admittedly it may be different for baby sullys, but I have watched my Rocky stalk prey, and yes she's a half grown recognized predator species, but there's nothing wrong with her speed or aim. She holds totally still, head retracted, and watches for a minute, then with amazing speed her head shoots out and nabs the bug. A blink of an eye, literally.

maybe they have trouble eating opuntia because it doesn't behave like food should. It doesn't try to get away. :)

as to no ammo and baby rodents being to big, from what iv'e seen tortoise jaws and claws tear through most things quite well. Not a pretty picture, but plausible.
 

DeanS

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Az tortoise compound said:
I volunteer to go and study them in their natural environment. I'll dig in through burrows with a small camera and report directly back to TFO.
Now, all you guys need to do is fund the study! I will be waiting with my bags packed. I accept Paypal.
Looking forward to Africa,

...and Mick will need an assistant...so I'll volunteer!
 

Balboa

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Hmmmm maybe we could get some grants. Get Zoo-Med to bankroll this.
 

DeanS

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Balboa said:
Hmmmm maybe we could get some grants. Get Zoo-Med to bankroll this.

Yeah! Then grassland tortoise diet will contain rodent and insect by-products:D
 

Tom

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I've been considering this for a long time. Even talked to several people about it. Had a conversation last night with a member who was impressed with how much his torts LOVED mushrooms. I've seen two accounts of tortoises actually hunting. One was a galapagos that would stand tall in a sunny spot at the water's edge and wait for little birdies to land under him for some shade and cover while they drank. Then, SPLAT, he'd suddenly drop down on them, back up, eat his kill, then re-assume the position and wait for more victims. The other is a sulcata in Ojai. The story was published in the Tortuga Gazette. He would wait all day by a gopher mound and sit totally motionless. When the little gopher stuck his head up, WHAM!, a bloody snack.

As for being slow or having bad aim, box turtles do just fine eating lots of bugs and my sulcata babies are just as fast and mobile as them. Plus a lot of those kind of bugs aren't all that fast. Isopods, millipedes, pincher bugs, snails and slugs, etc...

In a conversation with Richard Fife, he told me that he thought that due to the fear associated with protein causing pyramiding, that most tortoise diets are lacking in protein. This is one of his reasons for regularly using Mazuri.

Maybe I should do an experiment with some protein in a sulcata diet with my next batch of babies.

One thing I do know for sure is that NOBODY knows the answers to these questions. The lives of wild hatchlings are almost a complete mystery.
 

Madkins007

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I like this thread!

Box turtles behave EXACTLY like this, and so do sliders, etc.- almost completely carnivorous as young'uns, shifting to a more herbivorous diet as they grow.

Baby Copperhead snakes have a brightly colored tail that they use to entice bugs in as a meal, and Box and Wood Turtles 'drum' for worms. Maybe baby torts do something similar? (I admit I have no idea what they would be doing, but I would bet some something they do has the potential to attract bugs.

Another point is that many reptiles, including our tortoises, grow in what they call a sigmoid growth curve- slow for a bit, then fast until they hit sexual maturity, then slowing. Meat is what drives a lot of species in the faster portion of the curve, and some breeders have been known for years to offer protein-heavy meals to speed grow their torts to maturity.

How about vitamin D? While not heavy in all forms of meat, it is found in organ meats and such, and vitamin D2 is found in mushrooms. Babies hide- maybe one reason they can hide and still use calcium is the D in their prey.

I know my guys LOVE meat when it is offered, but they are Red-foots and can handle large amounts of the stuff. It would be interesting to know how well the digestive systems of baby grassland species fare.

Well, dang it, I'm off to get my guys some worms!


(PS- have you ever thought about the logistical difficulties of tracking baby tortoises? Just FINDING them is hard enough, and you cannot really put a big transmitter on one. Then, just tracking this one cluster would be helpful, but you really need to track a dozen or more at this site, and another dozen here several miles away, and repeat for a different species in a different ecosystem a few times to really get useful info.

Having said all that- I bet some of this data exists for Desert Tortoises- one of the most researched wild species on Earth.)
 

Greg Knoell

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Another great thread, and very thought provoking. I used to work at a reptile pet store and we had a 8 inch sulcata come in, we kept him in a 6 foot long stock tank. One day a live adult feeder mouse fell into his stock tank and a few seconds later...CHOMP...no hesitation what-so-ever, the sulcata pretty much ate the mouse in one piece with four or five bites only a few seconds after it fell in. I believe that tortoises are opportunistic predators at the very least.

I also believe that high-nutrient protien-rich foods like fresh alfalfa are FANTASTIC food items for tortoises.
 

DeanS

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Tom said:
I've been considering this for a long time. Even talked to several people about it. Had a conversation last night with a member who was impressed with how much his torts LOVED mushrooms. I've seen two accounts of tortoises actually hunting. One was a galapagos that would stand tall in a sunny spot at the water's edge and wait for little birdies to land under him for some shade and cover while they drank. Then, SPLAT, he'd suddenly drop down on them, back up, eat his kill, then re-assume the position and wait for more victims. The other is a sulcata in Ojai. The story was published in the Tortuga Gazette. He would wait all day by a gopher mound and sit totally motionless. When the little gopher stuck his head up, WHAM!, a bloody snack.

As for being slow or having bad aim, box turtles do just fine eating lots of bugs and my sulcata babies are just as fast and mobile as them. Plus a lot of those kind of bugs aren't all that fast. Isopods, millipedes, pincher bugs, snails and slugs, etc...

In a conversation with Richard Fife, he told me that he thought that due to the fear associated with protein causing pyramiding, that most tortoise diets are lacking in protein. This is one of his reasons for regularly using Mazuri.

Maybe I should do an experiment with some protein in a sulcata diet with my next batch of babies.

One thing I do know for sure is that NOBODY knows the answers to these questions. The lives of wild hatchlings are almost a complete mystery.

I know it seems like I was joking, but I am seriously considering adding pinkies to the yearling's diet...and I'm curious what Aladar would do with a medium-sized rodent or two.
 

Az tortoise compound

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Like everything else in nature, it's all about balance. It would make sense that they would eat a grub or two if they came across it.
Dean,
Not the worst idea I have heard, but I have no desire to watch my hatchling sullies rip apart a pinky. You will have to let me know how that goes.

......now I think about it, maybe I can supplement Perseus' diet with a stray cat here and there:)....sweet!
 

DeanS

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Az tortoise compound said:
Like everything else in nature, it's all about balance. It would make sense that they would eat a grub or two if they came across it.
Dean,
Not the worst idea I have heard, but I have no desire to watch my hatchling sullies rip apart a pinky. You will have to let me know how that goes.

......now I think about it, maybe I can supplement Perseus' diet with a stray cat here and there:)....sweet!

Perseus might need two!:D
 
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Maggie Cummings

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When I lived in Calif I head started Gopherus agssizii for the rescue. One day I was sitting in the sun with a clutch of 4 or 5 month old babies. I was just watching them walk around and graze when all the sudden one of them froze, head out and up, eyes bright and alert and then he took off like a shot and grabbed a bluebelly lizard off the wall. The lizard was bigger than the hatchling but I'm damned if the hatchling didn't eat the whole thing! I say they eat meat when they can...:p
 

onarock

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Just a thought, but maybe all these thousands of tortoises that we all have been rasing over the years really only want a burger.
 
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