Best hay

[Hai]

What is the best type of hay to feed?

 

[Hippytort]

Orchard or Bermuda. Either one is good

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Here are a few considerations regarding hay. As a bit of a background I use pellets intended for horses, of mixed or pure grass/hay types. Hay is a dried grass, so if you think of it as dead grass, that might be a more 'honest' way to think about it.

That first bite into hay, as I imagine it happens is while the tortoise is eating live grass. I'm pretty sure that tortoises do not seek dead grass on purpose, but that it is a learned behavior seasonally when they are young. They start out eating fresh grass, and as the season progresses they accidently eat some dead blades here and there, then when that is all that is left they eat it by default. I don't believe baby tortoises choose to eat dead grass as a first choice.

Why grass/hay is so important is as much to do with the nutrient profile as it is to do with the great diversity of fiber in the grass, FIBER.

Fiber is effectively three things for the digestion process, which is conditional to the animal. That is, fiber for a horse is NOT the same thing as fiber for a tortoise, but they are close, even the exact same bale or patch of green grass. Here's why...

The first pass at the 'stuff' that is fiber in the diet, is digested by the animals own digestive enzymes and mechanical maceration (biting and chewing). A hoarse is different than a tortoise in that they have different enzymes and biting chewing mechanisms. A horse has a body temperature that keeps digestion at an optimal efficiency, a tortoise has to thermoregulate for digestive efficiency - and we are still talking about just the digestive enzymes. Bite size is different and tortoises don't really chew or ad saliva to the stuff.

The next, second pass, of fiber is what the gut microbiome will do to it, AND what the fiber does for that gut microbiome (the third pass). The gut microbiome consists of bacteria, fungus and small organisms, worms, and protozoans, that in proper numbers act to help the host (tortoise or horse) to get value out of the stuff in the gut. The gross way to think about it is those things eat and poop in the digestive system, and their poop becomes part of the nutrients the tortoise utilizes. This is in part why I don't jump on the 'kill all the stuff in gut' bandwagon, some can be beneficial. So this too is part of why fiber that gets utilized is important.

That last, or third, fiber consideration is the stuff that neither the tortoise, or the microbe party in the gut can digest. But this is where many of those gut microbes live, ever growing their population into the new stuff coming along, as the old population gets pooped out. That's was a helva gut microbe party. The more diverse that indigestible fiber particle size in the food, the more diverse (stable and healthy) the gut microbes are. This is also how the "good" ones crowd out the 'bad" ones. That indigestible part of the fiber is also a way for the tortoise to physically move that bolus of food in the intestines.

Yes, I do recall we are talking about grass/hay. I use pellets moistened and expanded, tumbled into other salad components like leafy greens. The good and bad part of that, fiber particle size diversity if lower than if the tortoise took bites from actual grass or hay. But it is much easier to deal with IMO. So, I use a few different pellets throughout the week.

I use the ZooMed grassland and/or Forest tortoise diets, they have a great fiber profile. I use cubes made from alfalfa and Bermuda. I use straight Bermuda pellets and I use straight orchard grass pellets. Pellet diameter means different amounts of sizes indigestible fiber particles, cubes have the most. Pellets come in 1/8 inch up 5/8 inch diameter. So even if you only have Bermuda, two different diameters will be slightly different for nutrient uptake. Content will be more or less the same. Recall fiber diversity = gut biome diversity = gut biome eating and pooping - which are nutrients. Also the extrusion process - how pellets are made, partially break the grass down, appealing to that 'eat some feces' impulse tortoise seem to have. Often you will see in the ingredients list on the bag of pellets or cubes 'bentonite clay'. That helps the extrusion process. At east some bentonite is composed with calcium - that's a good thing. Seems really complicated. Not really so much so.

Use different size pellets of different grasses if you go with pellets. Like all new foods, start with small amounts and slowly increase amount. Timothy has an unfounded "best" associated with it it's good but not 'best'. Bermuda, Orchard, Broome, Prairie (several grasses growing and harvested together), oat, and wheat etc. are all good choices. Don't worry if it's an Alfalfa blend, it's not the whole diet but part of variety, alfalfa is an OKAY food item, and a native food item for a few species.

If I ever find a source for organic pellets dried grasses, rest assure it will appear at Kapidolo Farms. Right now I only have the soft pre-seed head oat grass known as 'milky oats'.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Here are a few considerations regarding hay. As a bit of a background I use pellets intended for horses, of mixed or pure grass/hay types. Hay is a dried grass, so if you think of it as dead grass, that might be a more 'honest' way to think about it.

That first bite into hay, as I imagine it happens is while the tortoise is eating live grass. I'm pretty sure that tortoises do not seek dead grass on purpose, but that it is a learned behavior seasonally when they are young. They start out eating fresh grass, and as the season progresses they accidently eat some dead blades here and there, then when that is all that is left they eat it by default. I don't believe baby tortoises choose to eat dead grass as a first choice.

Why grass/hay is so important is as much to do with the nutrient profile as it is to do with the great diversity of fiber in the grass, FIBER.

Fiber is effectively three things for the digestion process, which is conditional to the animal. That is, fiber for a horse is NOT the same thing as fiber for a tortoise, but they are close, even the exact same bale or patch of green grass. Here's why...

The first pass at the 'stuff' that is fiber in the diet, is digested by the animals own digestive enzymes and mechanical maceration (biting and chewing). A hoarse is different than a tortoise in that they have different enzymes and biting chewing mechanisms. A horse has a body temperature that keeps digestion at an optimal efficiency, a tortoise has to thermoregulate for digestive efficiency - and we are still talking about just the digestive enzymes. Bite size is different and tortoises don't really chew or ad saliva to the stuff.

The next, second pass, of fiber is what the gut microbiome will do to it, AND what the fiber does for that gut microbiome (the third pass). The gut microbiome consists of bacteria, fungus and small organisms, worms, and protozoans, that in proper numbers act to help the host (tortoise or horse) to get value out of the stuff in the gut. The gross way to think about it is those things eat and poop in the digestive system, and their poop becomes part of the nutrients the tortoise utilizes. This is in part why I don't jump on the 'kill all the stuff in gut' bandwagon, some can be beneficial. So this too is part of why fiber that gets utilized is important.

That last, or third, fiber consideration is the stuff that neither the tortoise, or the microbe party in the gut can digest. But this is where many of those gut microbes live, ever growing their population into the new stuff coming along, as the old population gets pooped out. That's was a helva gut microbe party. The more diverse that indigestible fiber particle size in the food, the more diverse (stable and healthy) the gut microbes are. This is also how the "good" ones crowd out the 'bad" ones. That indigestible part of the fiber is also a way for the tortoise to physically move that bolus of food in the intestines.

Yes, I do recall we are talking about grass/hay. I use pellets moistened and expanded, tumbled into other salad components like leafy greens. The good and bad part of that, fiber particle size diversity if lower than if the tortoise took bites from actual grass or hay. But it is much easier to deal with IMO. So, I use a few different pellets throughout the week.

I use the ZooMed grassland and/or Forest tortoise diets, they have a great fiber profile. I use cubes made from alfalfa and Bermuda. I use straight Bermuda pellets and I use straight orchard grass pellets. Pellet diameter means different amounts of sizes indigestible fiber particles, cubes have the most. Pellets come in 1/8 inch up 5/8 inch diameter. So even if you only have Bermuda, two different diameters will be slightly different for nutrient uptake. Content will be more or less the same. Recall fiber diversity = gut biome diversity = gut biome eating and pooping - which are nutrients. Also the extrusion process - how pellets are made, partially break the grass down, appealing to that 'eat some feces' impulse tortoise seem to have. Often you will see in the ingredients list on the bag of pellets or cubes 'bentonite clay'. That helps the extrusion process. At east some bentonite is composed with calcium - that's a good thing. Seems really complicated. Not really so much so.

Use different size pellets of different grasses if you go with pellets. Like all new foods, start with small amounts and slowly increase amount. Timothy has an unfounded "best" associated with it it's good but not 'best'. Bermuda, Orchard, Broome, Prairie (several grasses growing and harvested together), oat, and wheat etc. are all good choices. Don't worry if it's an Alfalfa blend, it's not the whole diet but part of variety, alfalfa is an OKAY food item, and a native food item for a few species.

If I ever find a source for organic pellets dried grasses, rest assure it will appear at Kapidolo Farms. Right now I only have the soft pre-seed head oat grass known as 'milky oats'.

Thanks for this very informative explanation. All makes good horse sense! ?

 

[Tom]

What is the best type of hay to feed?

I prefer orchard grass. Bermuda or teff are also good. I don't care for Timothy hay, but larger adult sulcatas can eat it just fine. I use soaked Timothy horse pellets to mix in with greens.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

A new one for me

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teff

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/22768

I don't recall the woman at the tack store mentioning this one.

I prefer orchard grass. Bermuda or teff are also good. I don't care for Timothy hay, but larger adult sulcatas can eat it just fine. I use soaked Timothy horse pellets to mix in with greens.

 

[Tom]

A new one for me

wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teff

Feedipedia https://www.feedipedia.org/node/22768

I don't recall the woman at the tack store mentioning this one.

It was brought up on another thread here and I'd never heard of it either. My local feed store sells it, and they let me scavenge some leavings from the base of the giant pile of teff hay bales to try out. Very similar to Bermuda hay in appearance. My tortoises ate it. Seems like a viable alternative if Bermuda or orchard grass hay isn't available.

 

[Roxanneizded]

Here are a few considerations regarding hay. As a bit of a background I use pellets intended for horses, of mixed or pure grass/hay types. Hay is a dried grass, so if you think of it as dead grass, that might be a more 'honest' way to think about it.

That first bite into hay, as I imagine it happens is while the tortoise is eating live grass. I'm pretty sure that tortoises do not seek dead grass on purpose, but that it is a learned behavior seasonally when they are young. They start out eating fresh grass, and as the season progresses they accidently eat some dead blades here and there, then when that is all that is left they eat it by default. I don't believe baby tortoises choose to eat dead grass as a first choice.

Why grass/hay is so important is as much to do with the nutrient profile as it is to do with the great diversity of fiber in the grass, FIBER.

Fiber is effectively three things for the digestion process, which is conditional to the animal. That is, fiber for a horse is NOT the same thing as fiber for a tortoise, but they are close, even the exact same bale or patch of green grass. Here's why...

The first pass at the 'stuff' that is fiber in the diet, is digested by the animals own digestive enzymes and mechanical maceration (biting and chewing). A hoarse is different than a tortoise in that they have different enzymes and biting chewing mechanisms. A horse has a body temperature that keeps digestion at an optimal efficiency, a tortoise has to thermoregulate for digestive efficiency - and we are still talking about just the digestive enzymes. Bite size is different and tortoises don't really chew or ad saliva to the stuff.

The next, second pass, of fiber is what the gut microbiome will do to it, AND what the fiber does for that gut microbiome (the third pass). The gut microbiome consists of bacteria, fungus and small organisms, worms, and protozoans, that in proper numbers act to help the host (tortoise or horse) to get value out of the stuff in the gut. The gross way to think about it is those things eat and poop in the digestive system, and their poop becomes part of the nutrients the tortoise utilizes. This is in part why I don't jump on the 'kill all the stuff in gut' bandwagon, some can be beneficial. So this too is part of why fiber that gets utilized is important.

That last, or third, fiber consideration is the stuff that neither the tortoise, or the microbe party in the gut can digest. But this is where many of those gut microbes live, ever growing their population into the new stuff coming along, as the old population gets pooped out. That's was a helva gut microbe party. The more diverse that indigestible fiber particle size in the food, the more diverse (stable and healthy) the gut microbes are. This is also how the "good" ones crowd out the 'bad" ones. That indigestible part of the fiber is also a way for the tortoise to physically move that bolus of food in the intestines.

Yes, I do recall we are talking about grass/hay. I use pellets moistened and expanded, tumbled into other salad components like leafy greens. The good and bad part of that, fiber particle size diversity if lower than if the tortoise took bites from actual grass or hay. But it is much easier to deal with IMO. So, I use a few different pellets throughout the week.

I use the ZooMed grassland and/or Forest tortoise diets, they have a great fiber profile. I use cubes made from alfalfa and Bermuda. I use straight Bermuda pellets and I use straight orchard grass pellets. Pellet diameter means different amounts of sizes indigestible fiber particles, cubes have the most. Pellets come in 1/8 inch up 5/8 inch diameter. So even if you only have Bermuda, two different diameters will be slightly different for nutrient uptake. Content will be more or less the same. Recall fiber diversity = gut biome diversity = gut biome eating and pooping - which are nutrients. Also the extrusion process - how pellets are made, partially break the grass down, appealing to that 'eat some feces' impulse tortoise seem to have. Often you will see in the ingredients list on the bag of pellets or cubes 'bentonite clay'. That helps the extrusion process. At east some bentonite is composed with calcium - that's a good thing. Seems really complicated. Not really so much so.

Use different size pellets of different grasses if you go with pellets. Like all new foods, start with small amounts and slowly increase amount. Timothy has an unfounded "best" associated with it it's good but not 'best'. Bermuda, Orchard, Broome, Prairie (several grasses growing and harvested together), oat, and wheat etc. are all good choices. Don't worry if it's an Alfalfa blend, it's not the whole diet but part of variety, alfalfa is an OKAY food item, and a native food item for a few species.

If I ever find a source for organic pellets dried grasses, rest assure it will appear at Kapidolo Farms. Right now I only have the soft pre-seed head oat grass known as 'milky oats'.

Nice article. Thank you. Worms are not beneficial to the guts of horses or tortoises. Other than that, rock on!

 

[Hai]

I bought some orchard.

When I took my torts to the vet for a check up I was told sulcatas has a type of work in the stomach. Can't remember the reason why tho

 

[Roxanneizded]

I bought some orchard.

When I took my torts to the vet for a check up I was told sulcatas has a type of work in the stomach. Can't remember the reason why tho

Hi. A parasite whether it be worms, protozoa etc. is harmful to the host. There is no symbiotic relationship. A small infestation can turn into a deadly one. Given the stresses a tortoise endures in captivity, compromise of the immune system is common. Please get a fresh stool sample and have it tested. Place it in an airtight waterproof jar. Once a year would save a lot of tortoises.

 

[Hai]

Hi. A parasite whether it be worms, protozoa etc. is harmful to the host. There is no symbiotic relationship. A small infestation can turn into a deadly one. Given the stresses a tortoise endures in captivity, compromise of the immune system is common. Please get a fresh stool sample and have it tested. Place it in an airtight waterproof jar. Once a year would save a lot of tortoises.

I just did a stool sample this month, everything is good ?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Nice article. Thank you. Worms are not beneficial to the guts of horses or tortoises. Other than that, rock on!

Yeah, show me the evidence.