Biting??

[ChessieW]

Okay, so this evening I was watching tv when I decided to check on my two horsefield torts. Next thing I know, the girl is sniffing the boys head (and obviously likes the smell) then tries to bite his head!! The boy pulled his head away but then the girl moved on to his foot. I just can't understand this! Is it normal? She has never done this before, but seems to be sniffing him a lot for some reason now! Their only 22 months old!! Help?! Chessie xx thanks x

 

[Tyrtle]

Funny you should post this. We have two Russians and today I saw one of them go up to the other, do this head-bobbing thing and then bite the other one on her foot. She bit twice before I stopped this and moved her away from the other one. I also noted that the biter seems to be doing what appears to be "guarding" the food dish.

I'm starting to worry that the happy twosome are on a path of not being able to live together anymore. We adopted them together a couple months ago. We were told they had always lived together and I had never seen any signs of aggression before today.

 

[Tom]

Yes this is completely normal. This is what Russians do and this is why I am always harping and nagging people to NOT keep them in PAIRS. What you are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg. This is not okay and the one being bitten is suffering terrible stress by being forced to live in close proximity to their tormentor every day. If it were a dog it would have its tail tucked and be hiding in a corner whimpering, but torts just don't show emotion as well as dogs, so this happens all the time.

Please separate them. It is the kind, humane thing to do.

 

[ascott]

Yeah I am not a big advocate for successful tortoise pairing....not that it can not happen but that it is usually not the norm....

There has likely been mental bullying going in even prior to the assault...but since they are rarely vocal it makes it hard to recognize bullying until the physical assaults are under way....some will suggest a larger enclosure...more visual barriers two feeding stations and the like....however, to me these are simply a band aid over a festering sore...eventually the sore will burst and it it is not a pretty sight...

Also the "they have lived together and never had a problem" well, when torts are very young there is usually usually usually less aggression ...but the tort lairs know the sex of one another well before we can determine if we are housing same sex pairs or male/female pairs....both of which can and usually does end in an aggression moment...

I have two RFs here that came to me one stronger and one much weaker and the stronger one absolutely had been bullying the weaker--there were bite wounds and the weaker one has vision issues...and use to hide all of the time and was very lightweight....now Sophia is doing so so much better and Goliath the stronger one is as much a rufian as when they got here but now he only has my hand to chase and ram...lol

So I would seriously start evaluating a good soot for a second enclosure....also, good luck

 

[ChessieW]

Yeah I am not a big advocate for successful tortoise pairing....not that it can not happen but that it is usually not the norm....

There has likely been mental bullying going in even prior to the assault...but since they are rarely vocal it makes it hard to recognize bullying until the physical assaults are under way....some will suggest a larger enclosure...more visual barriers two feeding stations and the like....however, to me these are simply a band aid over a festering sore...eventually the sore will burst and it it is not a pretty sight...

Also the "they have lived together and never had a problem" well, when torts are very young there is usually usually usually less aggression ...but the tort lairs know the sex of one another well before we can determine if we are housing same sex pairs or male/female pairs....both of which can and usually does end in an aggression moment...

I have two RFs here that came to me one stronger and one much weaker and the stronger one absolutely had been bullying the weaker--there were bite wounds and the weaker one has vision issues...and use to hide all of the time and was very lightweight....now Sophia is doing so so much better and Goliath the stronger one is as much a rufian as when they got here but now he only has my hand to chase and ram...lol

So I would seriously start evaluating a good soot for a second enclosure....also, good luck

Hmmm... Ok, and btw their a male and female (we hope, the seller said he was only 85% sure if one of them was a male, but if not we have two females.

---

Funny you should post this. We have two Russians and today I saw one of them go up to the other, do this head-bobbing thing and then bite the other one on her foot. She bit twice before I stopped this and moved her away from the other one. I also noted that the biter seems to be doing what appears to be "guarding" the food dish.

I'm starting to worry that the happy twosome are on a path of not being able to live together anymore. We adopted them together a couple months ago. We were told they had always lived together and I had never seen any signs of aggression before today.

I know. The same for me! They usually cuddle up sleeping together and always fine! I've had them for a while and know them very well. I think it is just maybe because mine are young, they don't realise what the other's head or foot is. They seem fine now and are cuddling as we speak so I will not be separating them for the moment.

 

[dmmj]

Russians as a rule are territorial, it is more prevalent in males but females/females and females/males often fight. Unless they are kept in a big outdoor enclosure, even then they still fight. But it might be time to separate them, so the biting does not continue. Their fights can and often do get bloody.

 

[JoesMum]

I agree totally with Tom, Russians do not need or want company. They are solitary in the wild and fight for territory, girls, food... regularly drawing blood.

Separate them for their own sake, please.

Keeping two girls together is no better than keeping two boys or a boy and a girl... unless you have a very large open space with loads of hides and shelters, there is little hope.

As for sexing... in my experience until they are 5-10 years old, there is no guarantee that they have been sexed correctly. You may get one or both flash at you yet as they prove they are males by displaying their parts... and there is absolutely no mistake once you have seen something that big!

 

[Tom]

Please understand that I am not trying to pick on you. I am trying to help you and others understand a behavioral aspect of a reptile. What you are doing is called anthropomorphizing. It is not necessarily bad, but it some cases, like this one, it can lead to stress, injury or death.

Your tortoises are not "snuggling". They are both trying to squeeze into the best, most advantageous sleeping spot. They are competing for it, and that does not make either of them happy. They just have no choice but to deal with what you have given them. I don't understand why it needs to get worse and you need to see injury before you decide to separate them. They are giving you all the warning signs right now and so are we. None of us want to argue or fight with you or anyone. It is our intention to help your tortoises first and foremost, and in the process help you too. We don't stand to gain anything by typing this out, spending our time and telling you what we think is best for your tortoises. There is no reason why we would make this up. The people telling you to separate them have all seen Russians tear each other up. You've gotten away with it for a while, but now it's time to re-think things. I had the same experience with two male sulcatas. They got along fine for nine years in a large outdoor pen, until one day when they didn't get along. I had to separate them and they are still separate years later.

You have two healthy looking gorgeous Russians there. Everyone, including you, would hate to see one of them with a big scar or missing eyeball, that could have been prevented so easily.

 

[Tyrtle]

Tom,
I very much appreciate your advice. I'll be working on a separation plan. Separating now just isn't exactly an option.

When we adopted them, we were told the former keepers had tried to separate them and one of them stopped eating altogether. But who knows? I suppose things can change for tortoises as they get older. I just need to figure out how to separate them either here in our home or more than likely how to give one away.

 

[JoesMum]

It is quite likely that separation will cause some sort of behaviour change. It should only be temporary. Torts are rubbish at handling change and a new table, change of sharing arrangements, change of owner can cause them to stop eating for a couple of weeks or more. As long as you soak daily to ensure hydration, no harm will be done.

However, you have to be strong and they will settle down and start living life to the full again.

 

[ChessieW]

I'm not sure. I am not rowing with you, and I do not want to cause an argument but I really believe that you guys have got the wrong end of the stick here. As she is so young I think that she did not understand that the other tort's body parts were not food. She simply liked the smell of it and tried to eat, that's what I think anyway....

 

[Tom]

I'm not sure. I am not rowing with you, and I do not want to cause an argument but I really believe that you guys have got the wrong end of the stick here. As she is so young I think that she did not understand that the other tort's body parts were not food. She simply liked the smell of it and tried to eat, that's what I think anyway....

I don't mean this to be rude, but tortoises can see and smell about as good as we can. I can tell the different between a weed or leaf of lettuce and one of my tortoises legs... Pretty sure they can too.

 

[ChessieW]

oh well!

 

[drgnfly2265]

I also suggest to seperate them before it gets worse....

 

[ascott]

only 22 months old

I am sure the breeder had a "feeling" of what sex the torts are...however, there is absolutely no way to tell the sex of a tort that young (outside of being sexed by a scope and a knowledgable tech to do just that)....

We "humans" can only guess when the are this young...but I can bet you that the two of them absolutely know what sex they are...

I always find it interesting when someone reaches out for help, advice and opinions...then those are given---the the same person completely rejects any possibility that experienced people have no idea of what they are talking about?????

I hope that your two torts are not bullying ---because it sounds as though you feel that is impossible and that they must have mistaken one another for food....sure, possible but not probable.

Please take out word when we outline for you bullying is a real and serious issue and I hope for your torts sake you understand that his is where we are coming from and not from any other place than offering our help and offering up our experience....

 

[ChessieW]

I'm not sure. I am not rowing with you, and I do not want to cause an argument but I really believe that you guys have got the wrong end of the stick here. As she is so young I think that she did not understand that the other tort's body parts were not food. She simply liked the smell of it and tried to eat, that's what I think anyway....

Please may I emphasise the first line!?

 

[Laurie]

People never cease to amaze me Ignorance is bliss, I guess. It's so sad that the ones who will suffer for ignorant, selfish decisions are the tortoises.

We all come here for help, the experienced people on this forum offer their knowledge and time because they truly care about tortoises. To not take the advice from people who have been keeping tortoises for decades is just plain silly. Why even bother asking questions if you choose to ignore the answers simply because it is not what you wanted to hear?

Just my two cents.

 

[tyler0912]

People never cease to amaze me Ignorance is bliss, I guess. It's so sad that the ones who will suffer for ignorant, selfish decisions are the tortoises.

We all come here for help, the experienced people on this forum offer their knowledge and time because they truly care about tortoises. To not take the advice from people who have been keeping tortoises for decades is just plain silly. Why even bother asking questions if you choose to ignore the answers simply because it is not what you wanted to hear?

Just my two cents.

Ditto!!

I believe ''Denial'' is the word needed here! :/

 

[ChessieW]

Look, I am not arguing. I am trying to figure out a separation plan.

---

Tom,
I very much appreciate your advice. I'll be working on a separation plan. Separating now just isn't exactly an option.

When we adopted them, we were told the former keepers had tried to separate them and one of them stopped eating altogether. But who knows? I suppose things can change for tortoises as they get older. I just need to figure out how to separate them either here in our home or more than likely how to give one away.

This is exactly what I am doing as well, though I am not sure this is possible.

 

[dmmj]

There is no need to badger chessiew, advice was given, it is up to her (?) on whether or not to use it.