Breeding beginner friendly?

[RayRay]

With all due respect Ray, with only a few months experience of keeping a tort under your belt I would wait a good while yet to make sure you at least have the basic of keeping them healthy and happy well and truely nailed before bringing babies into your world. I have had my tort for 18 months and even now after regularly reading, searching and posting here I still have a mountain of things to learn and still find out something new everyday.

You also have to weigh up the costs of all the equipment, incubators, brooders, heated enclosures and heat, uvb sources therefore elec bills as well as back up vets fees, plus the time it takes to look after hatchlings and make sure they are started properly and healthy.

Maybe breeding them is easier than I think and I became a keeper by accident, but if I was going to buy from a breeder I would want to know he was very experienced in tort keeping and knew what he was talking about so that he could give me the correct information. There are people who have bought from breeders who haven't been too well informed and looks to me as if they are just in it for the money which I find sad.

So from one novice to another I think my advice would be to make sure you can walk before you run.

Thanks for the advice I was going to wait tell after winter if I did do it but do you think that's to early still?

 

[RayRay]

like said before you do it because you have a passion for it not to make money the money is in inconsequential to the passion. that's my thoughts on it. but believe me we need more good breeders out there.

I was just wondering about the money, I'm not going to be having a "tortoise mill".

 

[dmmj]

how much money you could make should be simple to figure out. how much could you get for each hatchling how many hatchlings can you produce.that - your cost you know vet bills electricity food should give you a rough idea what you could expect to make. Russian hatchlings go for around 100 to 150. females lay around 4 to 6 eggs. females usually only lay 1 clutch. solve for x

 

[Lyn W]

Thanks for the advice I was going to wait tell after winter if I did do it but do you think that's to early still?

For me it would be - I would want to be sure I know 100% what I'm doing in all aspects of tort care of any age, so would give myself a much longer time to learn as much as possible and to make sure any babies were having the best start in life.
Also if you are thinking of breeding with a different species the care may be different for them to the one you have so you have to learn about that too.
A lot to weigh up really but at the heart if it, the torts and babies welfare must be paramount so you have to get it right.

 

[dwright27]

I'm with @Tom and @Lyn W . The only thing I don't agree with is the part about being 100% certain about their care, because I don't know that we'll ever get to 100%.

Most breeders have kept tortoises of their preferred species for several years before they start breeding. 6-8 months is not long enough, IMO. Sorry we can't tell you what you want to hear..

 

[Tom]

What counts as commercial versus hobbyist?

This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.

Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it. One example: If a person makes more selling tortoises than they do at their "regular job", then I would say they've moved into the realm of "commercial" sales. But this doesn't make sense in some cases. What if a guy is a top surgeon and makes $500,000 a year at his "regular" job, and then for a hobby he breeds large numbers of Galopagos, radiated and burmese star tortoises. Supposed he sells $490,000 worth of baby tortoise from his "hobby" outside of his normal job. I don't know any commercial breeder selling $490,000 worth of tortoises each year. Then suppose we have a car mechanic who works at a dealership. Our mechanic makes $45,000 a year and also keeps some radiated tortoises as a hobby. Maybe our guy sells 50 Radiated babies in a good year and makes $50,000. Is he now a "commercial breeder" because he sold more in tortoise than he earned at his "regular" job? One guy sold almost ten times as many as the other, but since he makes more at his "regular job" my definition fails.

 

[Tom]

If I do decide to breed Russians should I buy wild caught adults since they are going to be here anyways and they wont be as likely to be inbreeding as a smaller gene pool?

And how long would quarantine take for wc to wc breeding? And I have read someone talking about having to euthanize some wc adults they bought because of deseases is that common?

Quarantine for a newly imported russian should be 6-12 months. If you got one large group all at the same time from the same source, they could just all be set up together with no quarantine. Quarantine would only come in for tortoises from multiple sources.

You can find a mixed gene pool from multiple CB sources. That's what I did. Or you can do a mix of CB and long term captives.

Yes, some adult WC animals have come in riddled with all sorts of diseases, but many more have come in and been fine.

 

[keepergale]

I always thought if you start with hatchling by the time they are breeding age you will be knowledgeable enough to be a breeder.

 

[RayRay]

Thanks for all of the great replies guys and girls.

I guess I will wait tell I get more experienced and also have my own property so there wont be any parental limitations as well

 

[dwright27]

Glad to hear it. Enjoy your sully and share your experiences with the forum.

 

[jaizei]

This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.

Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it. One example: If a person makes more selling tortoises than they do at their "regular job", then I would say they've moved into the realm of "commercial" sales. But this doesn't make sense in some cases. What if a guy is a top surgeon and makes $500,000 a year at his "regular" job, and then for a hobby he breeds large numbers of Galopagos, radiated and burmese star tortoises. Supposed he sells $490,000 worth of baby tortoise from his "hobby" outside of his normal job. I don't know any commercial breeder selling $490,000 worth of tortoises each year. Then suppose we have a car mechanic who works at a dealership. Our mechanic makes $45,000 a year and also keeps some radiated tortoises as a hobby. Maybe our guy sells 50 Radiated babies in a good year and makes $50,000. Is he now a "commercial breeder" because he sold more in tortoise than he earned at his "regular" job? One guy sold almost ten times as many as the other, but since he makes more at his "regular job" my definition fails.

I think it's substantially less complicated than you do. Do the breeders in your example operate as a business (behavior wise), i.e. are they trying to make a profit? Are they using a dba or are they incorporated? Do they have a storefront/website? Do they sell other products (lamps, food, etc)? Are they writing off expenses, and how?

How much money someone makes selling tortoises vs their 'real' job has nothing to do with whether something is considered a business or not. You're supposed to pay tax on the income regardless of it being from a hobby or a business, so it makes much more sense to be a business than a hobbyist. If they're regularly making a profit, then there's little to no reason to say they're a hobbyist and not a business. Getting around that 4" rule is just about it. It's not any different than all those websites that have that silly 'turtles under 4 inches sold only for educational or research purposes' disclaimer.

 

[theguy67]

I'm surprised at how friendly everyone was answering this type of question. Many other forums (of other reptiles) become very,...stern with their responses, almost offended.

For me, I do think someone can make a decent profit from breeding reptiles, even as a primary income, but to get there is a lot of work. Those that eventually arrive at those sort of numbers are probably the ones that have enough passion to survive the years of learning. This hobby can be very rewarding, but stressful at times. If you do not have passion you will not receive any reward, which will cause you to burn out early. The problem people on the outside make is they see these high priced babies, and do quick math and think "whoa, I could be rich". They may be right, but the math involved from getting from A to B only comes later, sometimes too late after animals are already bought. If its your dream career, then set that as your goal, and educate yourself. If you plan to attend college, maybe major in biology with a minor in business (or vice versa). Just like any career goal, most are not set based on money.

I live in central Texas too, and keep redfoots. I started with 1 sulcata, and 2 redfoot hatchlings 14 years ago. It wasn't until 3 years ago that I decided to add to the group. I chose to focus more on redfoots since they stay much smaller. I also preferred their colorings, and environment to landscape. Sulcatas are more adapted to our climate, but grow to be much larger, requiring lots of room and food. They also seem less communal and more destructive.

 

[Tom]

I think it's substantially less complicated than you do. Do the breeders in your example operate as a business (behavior wise), i.e. are they trying to make a profit? Are they using a dba or are they incorporated? Do they have a storefront/website? Do they sell other products (lamps, food, etc)? Are they writing off expenses, and how?

How much money someone makes selling tortoises vs their 'real' job has nothing to do with whether something is considered a business or not. You're supposed to pay tax on the income regardless of it being from a hobby or a business, so it makes much more sense to be a business than a hobbyist. If they're regularly making a profit, then there's little to no reason to say they're a hobbyist and not a business. Getting around that 4" rule is just about it. It's not any different than all those websites that have that silly 'turtles under 4 inches sold only for educational or research purposes' disclaimer.

Well I don't see how my thoughts on the matter are any more complicated than yours but…

I simply listed one way of looking at it, and you listed another. As I stated in sentence number one and two of my reply: "This is a very tricky question, and its open to interpretation by each and every enforcement officer and the courts too, should it get that far.

Generally speaking, any definition will have egregious examples that refute it."

This includes your example too.

In my extensive dealings with the people who our government has charged with enforcing these policies, rules, and laws, common sense is often not a factor. Reason, logic, and any sort of rational consideration about what the intent of these laws are is often the furthest thing from their mind.

Your explanation makes sense, but is also refutable and arguable. I think my one hypothetical example makes sense too. How the authority figure standing in front of a person who has sold some hatchlings interprets the rules might be entirely different than how any of us views the issues. This has been demonstrated many times over the years. To say this whole subject is a "gray area" would be an understatement.

 

[RayRay]

If at a future time when I have my own place say I have several Sudanese Mali and Senegal and ivory sulcatas and I let them breed and sell the hatchlings to people who dont have that type of sulcata would that be considered just a hobbyist selling to fellow hobbyist?

 

[jaizei]

If at a future time when I have my own place say I have several Sudanese Mali and Senegal and ivory sulcatas and I let them breed and sell the hatchlings to people who dont have that type of sulcata would that be considered just a hobbyist selling to fellow hobbyist?

It depends on whether you are a hobbyist or if you are trying to run a business. That is something that depends on you. Generally speaking, if you are able to do something and make money, it's better to be a business because you can then take advantage of tax deductions, etc. The main reason to say you're a hobbyist would be to try to get around the 4" rule.

 

[RayRay]

It depends on whether you are a hobbyist or if you are trying to run a business. That is something that depends on you. Generally speaking, if you are able to do something and make money, it's better to be a business because you can then take advantage of tax deductions, etc. The main reason to say you're a hobbyist would be to try to get around the 4" rule.

Ah ok.

 

[dmmj]

also remember the four inch rule is not enforced very often

 

[RayRay]

also remember the four inch rule is not enforced very often

I know why they did the rule but its not a very sane law lol

 

[dmmj]

well even the reasons they state why they made it are stupid

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Keep in mind, being a breeder isn't just as easy as throwing males and females together and tah-dah, you have babies to sell.

I wanted to breed Russians, too. I acquired 1 male and 3 females. Since they were from the same source, I didn't need to quarantine. They lived outside (when I lived in SoCal) in a well planted enclosure that was 20' x 6'. I personally couldn't handle the tortoise "rape". The male was very rough. 2 females stopped eating and wouldn't come out of hiding, leaving the third female to take the beating.
I separated the male into a 17'x8' bachelor pad. Then the 3 females were having dominance issues in the 20x6!
I could have made additional enclosures, separated everyone and kept trying but I didn't want to cut into my leopard tortoise space. I figured Russian breeding just wasn't for me and that's ok.
It worked out that their previous owner took them back.