Building a Better Bask

[Balboa]

Yvonne posted an interesting thread here
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-pyramided-VS-normal?pid=184239
With links to some recent work by Andy Highfield on Pyramiding.

A discussion of that paper would be a great thread in its own right, but something in particular that got me thinking was how basking lights could be a large source of the problem from overly drying the shell. I've thought about this as well. Whenever I see Rocky basking I whip out the mister and wet her down, she dries out so quickly under that thing.

The obvious fix is of course to monitor how much time your tort spends basking, and if it seems excessive, up enclosure temps. If they never bask, might be too hot, cool it.

Could there be better means though. Do some heat sources indeed penetrate deeper faster, helping to prevent long bask times? I hope we are all applying belly heat to speed the process. (oh no not that!) but if you set a rock or tile down for the tort to bask on you are doing just that, as the rock accumulates the heat and becomes actually hotter than the air above it.

*which brings another question to light- the basking temperature suggested for a species IS the air temp at Tort Level under the light correct? So what is the true amount of heat being applied at that time. Math would be involved I think.*

Would a HOT HUMID HIDE be a "better" solution. I tried to address this somewhat in Rocky's enclosure by placing the humidifier next to the basking spot, but its still not enough, humidity is still usually normal at bask, which may be ok... maybe not.

A Humid Hide placed at the hot end is usually one of the coolest places in the enclosure from my experience. The constant evaporative loss excedes the thermal gain. It cools itself off faster than it heats up. Maybe that's just my bad luck?

So by Hot Humid Hide, I mean more like a turkish bath to maintain sufficient humidity and heat for safe basking.

any thoughts, ideas?

 

[Badgemash]

I don't think that I can add too much to this thread, other than an observation about light and radiation (without going into deep physics). I also nail the kids with the mister whenever they come out of the hide. (the new babies are driving me crazy because they sleep under the basking light all day).

Typically short wavelength radiation has much greater energy and penetration, for example gamma radiation (super high energy) requires thick lead shielding for protection whereas UV can be blocked by sunscreen. Visible light makes up such a tiny segment of the overall spectrum that although there might be variation between the wavelengths produced by different bulbs, they will all still fall within that tiny segment. Since the wavelengths (and energy) are all pretty much the same I would expect the variations in penetration to be so small to be insignificant between bulbs. So to get noticeably quicker penetration of heat energy we might have to decrease the wavelength to a dangerously high point, like microwave, which would be bad.

I don't know the density or thickness of live tortie shell, or the actual output for the various devices, but if they could be measured accurately the rate of heat absorption could be calculated.

-Devon

 

[Kristina]

You know what I think is key?

OUTSIDE TIME.

I observe my tortoises outside. They usually "wake up" between 10 and 11 AM, before it is really hot out. They spend about an hour stretched out in the sun, warming up. Then they graze. Once ambient air temps hit about 85*, the scatter for their burrows. Every single day. No change, unless it is cooler out than normal, and then they might bask a bitty bit longer. But they hug the shadows and are in their burrows/caves for 90% of any 24 hour period. Usually about 5 PM, when the sun is no longer directly overhead, they graze for maybe another hour. And then they go down for the night.

Now, what does this prove? For one, that relatively short periods of direct sunlight are sufficient to provide enough UV and heat. Two, that if it only takes a tiny amount of time outside, and yet tortoises are getting MBD under UV lights - this shows that UV lights are GREATLY inferior to sunlight.

Here comes the kicker. Not everyone can have their tortoise outside all year round. I, for one, can't. But I am going to admit to something that I have never really told more than a couple of people. EVER. I don't talk about it because I am pretty sure I am going to get slammed.

In the last 17 years, I have never, ever ever, used UV lighting. It is, in my opinion, a waste of money, and a racket by the pet industry to get that money. Those bulbs are junk, worthless. MVB are by far the best. But if you can get your tortoise outside time, for even 20 minutes to an hour a day, a couple of days a week, you do not need a UV light, even in the winter. Yes, even in the winter, the entire 6 months or whatever that your tortoises are kept inside for winter.

I had my Gopher for 10 years. He lived outside in the summer, and during the winter he was inside. I was a kid. I didn't have the ability to get "fancy" UV lighing. In fact, 17 years ago I used a "heat rock." (Definitely not advocating that, lol.) My point us that I didn't know any better, didn't have the alternative to get UV lighting, and yet raised a hard, healthy, non-pyramided (I also soaked and misted daily, plus provided a humid hide, but that is a story for another day ) tortoise.

That is what initially got me thinking. And so I figured if it wasn't broke, don't fix it. So I tried it with other tortoises, and in fact, other reptiles. And you know what? I have never, ever ever, had a case of MBD in my house. All from putting my reptiles in the sunshine for 6 months out of the year.

My conclusion - worry less about artificial UV, get those torts OUTSIDE. Everyone has 20 minutes a day to sit outside and look at a baby tort! If I do, you do. If you don't, don't get a tortoise. Pretty simple, lol. If you live in an apartment, take them outside in a tub or something and sit on the steps. Read a chapter in a book, the sunshine is probably good for you too. 20 minutes. You can do it.

My other conclusion is - keep your hot spots hot, but don't over heat the rest of the enclosure. My tortoises have always exhibited a need to warm up, but once their body temp hits a certain point, they don't want to be in the direct heat anymore. This will also help conserve moisture. Make sure there are hides both in the warm and cool areas of your enclosures. Don't make your tortoise sacrifice security for thermoregulation, ESPECIALLY babies.

As far as not using UV lighting at all, I am certainly not going to tell people to quit using it. I do think that if you are going to use it, don't waste your time with tube florescents or coil bulbs. Cut the crap and get an MVB. They are more expensive, but the other lights are JUNK.

 

[Annieski]

Out of curiosity--I checked the temps right now in Senegal--the expected high is 89f, with a low of 77f. In Chad--a high of 98f--dropping to 68f at night. The humidity ranges--41% to 68%. This being the "winter", I would believe it follows the same for our "winter season" in the line of-- the air temp is cooler and the " heat radiated from the sun" feels less intense. 2 months ago the temps in Chad---max high of 97f--low of 73f with 85% humidity.
What I'm getting from this is that Kristina, you have provided the cyclical changes that a wild tortoise would find. I have often thought that a hide[humid or not] was simplly a place the tortoise could go to find "the absence of heat". Perhaps in our efforts to create a "as close to natural" enviornment---we have gone to the extreme. Extreme meaning we have not compensated for "seasonal fluctuations" of not only temperature, but food source as well.
I believe you are 100% correct about the outside time being so important. This extends to "humans" as well. Not so much about colder temps, but more about exposure to natural sunlight. Clinical depression runs rampant in January to early March---days are shorter--we get up in "the dark"--go to work--and come home "in the dark". Thank you for sharing your "secrets"---I think it is valuable info that would otherwise been missed as an important aspect of tortoise husbandry.

 

[bettinge]

I really like this thread! It makes you think a bit.

At what temps do people bring their torts outside for the UV high? I'm not talking summer and nice weather, I mean fall, winter, spring? Do you bring them out on a sunny day when its only 50-60 out? Mine are out from April thru October, and I only bring them out other days when I feel the radiant heat will keep them active. I see no sense in bring them out if there just going to hide because its too cool.

 

[Madkins007]

I agree that outside time is important, but it is not always a realistic option. Here in Omaha in the winter I go to work when it is pretty dark and come home when it is pretty dark (and because I work 3 jobs, this happens 6 days a week).

We also don't want to make mistakes in the early stages. There are suggestions all over the net that proper exposure to UV early in life helps things like the eyes and pineal gland develop correctly. Eye development may never cause any problems, but the pineal gland may affect the tortoise over its entire life as it affects the sleep cycle, seasonal cycles, growth rates, and reproduction.

I have not found a study comparing the reproductive success of babies exposed to UV to those not (again, the problem of how many years pass in tortoises before reproducing makes research more complicated) but I bet it would be interesting.

And, of course, tortoises have 4 cones in their eyes, so see 4 'primary' colors compared to the human 3. If you deny UV over time, it would be like raising a person without any blue light. What affects would that have? I don't have a clue, but it makes me wonder.

 

[chairman]

I really like this thread! It makes you think a bit.

At what temps do people bring their torts outside for the UV high? I'm not talking summer and nice weather, I mean fall, winter, spring? Do you bring them out on a sunny day when its only 50-60 out? Mine are out from April thru October, and I only bring them out other days when I feel the radiant heat will keep them active. I see no sense in bring them out if there just going to hide because its too cool.

As a general rule, I require a temperature of at least 70* for my tortoises to go outside. The 70* target is easy to determine when the air temperature is at least 70*, but I have to use my non-contact thermometer to measure ground temperatures on colder days to see if outside time can be permitted. A sunny day with temps in the low 60's can result in a ground temp of over 70*, if only for a couple hours in the height of the afternoon.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

You know what I think is key?

OUTSIDE TIME.

I observe my tortoises outside. They usually "wake up" between 10 and 11 AM, before it is really hot out. They spend about an hour stretched out in the sun, warming up. Then they graze. Once ambient air temps hit about 85*, the scatter for their burrows. Every single day. No change, unless it is cooler out than normal, and then they might bask a bitty bit longer. But they hug the shadows and are in their burrows/caves for 90% of any 24 hour period. Usually about 5 PM, when the sun is no longer directly overhead, they graze for maybe another hour. And then they go down for the night.

Now, what does this prove? For one, that relatively short periods of direct sunlight are sufficient to provide enough UV and heat. Two, that if it only takes a tiny amount of time outside, and yet tortoises are getting MBD under UV lights - this shows that UV lights are GREATLY inferior to sunlight.

Here comes the kicker. Not everyone can have their tortoise outside all year round. I, for one, can't. But I am going to admit to something that I have never really told more than a couple of people. EVER. I don't talk about it because I am pretty sure I am going to get slammed.

In the last 17 years, I have never, ever ever, used UV lighting. It is, in my opinion, a waste of money, and a racket by the pet industry to get that money. Those bulbs are junk, worthless. MVB are by far the best. But if you can get your tortoise outside time, for even 20 minutes to an hour a day, a couple of days a week, you do not need a UV light, even in the winter. Yes, even in the winter, the entire 6 months or whatever that your tortoises are kept inside for winter.

I had my Gopher for 10 years. He lived outside in the summer, and during the winter he was inside. I was a kid. I didn't have the ability to get "fancy" UV lighing. In fact, 17 years ago I used a "heat rock." (Definitely not advocating that, lol.) My point us that I didn't know any better, didn't have the alternative to get UV lighting, and yet raised a hard, healthy, non-pyramided (I also soaked and misted daily, plus provided a humid hide, but that is a story for another day ) tortoise.

That is what initially got me thinking. And so I figured if it wasn't broke, don't fix it. So I tried it with other tortoises, and in fact, other reptiles. And you know what? I have never, ever ever, had a case of MBD in my house. All from putting my reptiles in the sunshine for 6 months out of the year.

My conclusion - worry less about artificial UV, get those torts OUTSIDE. Everyone has 20 minutes a day to sit outside and look at a baby tort! If I do, you do. If you don't, don't get a tortoise. Pretty simple, lol. If you live in an apartment, take them outside in a tub or something and sit on the steps. Read a chapter in a book, the sunshine is probably good for you too. 20 minutes. You can do it.

My other conclusion is - keep your hot spots hot, but don't over heat the rest of the enclosure. My tortoises have always exhibited a need to warm up, but once their body temp hits a certain point, they don't want to be in the direct heat anymore. This will also help conserve moisture. Make sure there are hides both in the warm and cool areas of your enclosures. Don't make your tortoise sacrifice security for thermoregulation, ESPECIALLY babies.

As far as not using UV lighting at all, I am certainly not going to tell people to quit using it. I do think that if you are going to use it, don't waste your time with tube florescents or coil bulbs. Cut the crap and get an MVB. They are more expensive, but the other lights are JUNK.

Absolute agreement, but, because I live in Texas, where we have occ. "tortoise-friendly" temps even in December and January, my pets can get outside often (it's a rare week when they can't a minimum of 3-4 hours of sun), and once it warms up, they're out 24/7.

Those farther north may have to get more creative, but there's always a way to get your torts some sunshine. If nothing else, one might rig up a reflector light to make a hot spot in an otherwise cool but sunny location, like the porch. When they feel chilled, they sit under the light, when they warm up, they wander around a bit further.

 

[Tom]

Great thread with great replies, especially Kristina. I agree 100% with everything you said!

I've been contemplating this subject for a very long time due to my abnormal obsession with ending pyramiding and trying to figure out shell moisture, humidity and all stuff related. Like Devon, all of my torts spend a lot of time under their basking lights, even when their room temp is in the nineties. And like Balboa, mine dry out very quickly under the hot lights. I do use a flat rock to give them belly heat and to absorb and disperse the heat over a greater area when they are not on it.

At the TTPG conference Richard Fife did a presentation showing his whole set-up and method of raising babies. Pics and everything. That one single presentation was worth the price of admission to me. EVERYONE should go to this next year! He uses a sweater box shelving unit type set-up. The substrate is half alfalfa hay and half peat, or something similar, with a wooden divider in the middle. There is a small upside down shoebox over the peat for a humid hide. The room is kept at 80-82 and the only heat they get is from the ballast of the flourescent lights under each row of tubs. Have you seen his babies? All smooth and healthy.

I've got some experiments in the works for when I get babies in the spring. I'll keep y'all posted...

 

[Balboa]

LOL you know guys, this thread never did what it was "supposed" to do, and that was fine by me, as it was still an interesting read, and had taken on a life of its own, and I let it go. Now I'm compelled to finally comment on all of your great observations.

How dare you Kristine! Bah, I'm pretty sure you're not alone in that one, just bold enough to fess up, and good for you on going the distance for your torts.

Terry, I like your idea about the mirrors. The problem with the Kristine method is that if scientists who make a living studying this stuff are to believed, there is little UV left in the light that reaches my home at my lattitude 6+ months out of the year. Maybe by building a "collector" I can actually produce a beam of sunlight with enough energy for a decent bask.

Tom. Did you take pictures of this thing? I'm familiar with most of the details on his choice of substrates and such, and have been puzzled when newbs have been chastised on this board for trying to follow his methods (alfalfa hay). I'm just having a hard time picturing a sweater box shelving unit. Do you mean this is like a stack of cubicles that plastic sweater box tubs slide into? Lights mounted to each level of shelving, lighting the unit below, heating the unit above?

I've noticed the last few days that Rocky's basking time has greatly increased, to an unhealthy point (IMO). Time to either up overall temps or make for a more intense bask.

 

[Tom]

No pics. It was a slide on a Powerpoint presentation. Its a shelving unit with a bunch of plastic boxes on it. Each row of tubs has a flourescent light over it and the ballast from these lights warms the tubs on the shelf above it. No other heat. I don't know how the bottom unit is heated since its not over a light.

 

[Neal]

The leopard tortoise book has a picture of the shelving Tom is reffering to. Pg. 45 is the exact shelving he showed us only it was more of a direct front shot of the unit.

 

[Kristina]

Hmmm, maybe I need to clarify a bit. I don't use UV during the winter, and they don't go outside. I am in Northern MI, so there is very little UV here during the winter (although I have gotten a sunburn from the light bouncing off the snow) not to mention subzero temperatures.

What I was getting at is that my torts only receive UV exposure 6-7 months out of the year. The months that they are indoors, the UV that they received outside seems to be enough to sustain them.

 

[Greg Knoell]

At the TTPG conference Richard Fife did a presentation showing his whole set-up and method of raising babies. Pics and everything. That one single presentation was worth the price of admission to me. EVERYONE should go to this next year! He uses a sweater box shelving unit type set-up. The substrate is half alfalfa hay and half peat, or something similar, with a wooden divider in the middle. There is a small upside down shoebox over the peat for a humid hide. The room is kept at 80-82 and the only heat they get is from the ballast of the flourescent lights under each row of tubs. Have you seen his babies? All smooth and healthy.

Tom, gosh I wanted to attend that conference but I just started a new Job that week and couldn't find a way to get off!! Gotta get there next year...

I wanted to ask because I don't think it was mentioned...Did Fife say weather or not the florescent lights were UVB blubs or not?

 

[gummybearpoop]

I typed a whole bunch of stuff....but deleted it. Lots of it was stuff I wrote in previous threads.

Everyone's situation is different. You have to see what will work for you in your residence and environment indoor and outdoors.

Here are some of my tortoises that I am raising... (which by the way, I haven't sprayed their enclosure the entire winter & humidity has been in the 20s, though I do soak them a few times a week)

 

[Tom]

At the TTPG conference Richard Fife did a presentation showing his whole set-up and method of raising babies. Pics and everything. That one single presentation was worth the price of admission to me. EVERYONE should go to this next year! He uses a sweater box shelving unit type set-up. The substrate is half alfalfa hay and half peat, or something similar, with a wooden divider in the middle. There is a small upside down shoebox over the peat for a humid hide. The room is kept at 80-82 and the only heat they get is from the ballast of the flourescent lights under each row of tubs. Have you seen his babies? All smooth and healthy.

Tom, gosh I wanted to attend that conference but I just started a new Job that week and couldn't find a way to get off!! Gotta get there next year...

I wanted to ask because I don't think it was mentioned...Did Fife say weather or not the florescent lights were UVB blubs or not?

If memory serves, he said they were just regular hardware store bulbs. "Cool white", I think.

I think it should be noted that all of the above DOES depend on species. Kristina noted that hers are running for cover at 85 degrees. She keeps mostly "forrest torts". My "desert" species don't even get up and get moving UNTIL its 85 and appear quite comfortable and active out in the sun in the high 90's.

 

[TylerStewart]

At the TTPG conference Richard Fife did a presentation showing his whole set-up and method of raising babies. Pics and everything. That one single presentation was worth the price of admission to me. EVERYONE should go to this next year!

And I got to sit next to Tom all weekend.... He's dreamy.

 

[Tom]

Is it okay to call someone a dork on a public, family oriented forum?

 

[Balboa]

Absolutely. You just cant call them a @##$%^

too funny.

If I somehow get rich between now and next year I'll have to attend this thing as well.

Dibs on the seat to Tom's otherside.