Bullies?

[jkingler]

Are active "bullies," in general, more healthy, less healthy, or just as healthy as other non-dominant, non-agressive tortoises? When observing grouped tortoises, should take bullying behaviors as one of many potential indicators of good health in a tortoise (as they are obviously getting exercise, have high energy levels, etc.).

Do share your thoughts and experiences, as I am very curious, and I have absolutely no idea if such behaviors are indicative of anything or if they are just part of a tort's personality.

 

[wellington]

My opinion, with any animal we keep. If bullying happens, they should be separated. In the natural habitat they come from, they would have the room to get away and claim their own space. Some times, some animals, will fight to death for their claim, however still have the option and the range to run off. In the small spaces we put them in, I don't feel we have the right to let the bullying continue. They do not have the option to run and stake claim some place else. We do not give them no where near the territory they would have naturally. I don't think it means they are healthy or un healthy. Sick animals will also fight/bully to show they are not weak, which if weakness is detected in the wild, it usually means death or someone's dinner. That's my non-expert opinion and I get it from years of being an animal lover and watching and learning as much as possible about all sorts of animals and marine life.

 

[dmmj]

Bullies in general would be healthier. Bullies tend to keep others from eating therefore the bullies eat more and are healthier and the bullied eat less and are weaker. It is just nature tortoises don't have any feeling for their siblings and or cage mate (in general) there is a reason why it is called survival of the fittest.

 

[Tom]

This is an impossibly complex question. There are so many ways to answer and so many ways to argue ANY point about any answer, but generally I would say that yes, in a given captive, enclosed population of multiple tortoises, the bully is generally healthy large and vigorous.

 

[jkingler]

To tease this out and get to what I really want to know:

If you were able to identify which tort is the bully and which the bullied, then separate them, would the bully STILL be generally healthier (assuming that being bullies did not have long-term ramifications, of course)? Essentially: if I plan to keep my torts in their own individual enclosures, should I STILL buy the bully?

 

[dmmj]

I see where you are going with this.
I imagine if you separated them then the bully would not have as much access to all the food you would give two or more, so while it would most likely still be healthy, I can't say it would be more healthy in the long run.

 

[jkingler]

So perhaps you mean to say that getting extra nutrients makes them extra 'healthy'/active? If that is the case, would feeding a tort all it can eat be beneficial?

 

[Tom]

Aha... I get what you are asking now. In the wild if one were a bully the subordinate would just leave the area. He likely wouldn't suffer the effects of any long term stress.

In captivity, it has been my experience that if you remove the bully from a pair, the other one starts to thrive in the same way the bully was thriving when they were together.

If it were me, and I intended to keep them separated anyway, I would buy the bully.

 

[dmmj]

No I would say a bully is not more healthy just getting more food while the other is not, therefore weaker.

 

[ascott]

I would suspect that you would want to select a tortoise that is the more active....moving...and confident....as you would with most other species of animal.

I personally enjoy the challenge of the more confident personality. There are absolutely traits you will find more commonly in certain species of tortoise that are less prominent in other species.

As with some people, personality plays a huge roll in obtaining the ability for harmony to be present....some folks get along better with a passive personality of tortoise and other folks (like myself) enjoy a huge dose of outwardly, spunky, confident tortoise character....

Now would a bully by appearance be a better measurement of overall health? I would suspect so...I say this because some tortoise are true examples of the words survival of the fittest ...but let's not forget that will can move mountains....some quiet, meek in appearance tortoise have learned that patience and opportunity can allow survival as well...will the head strong bullish soul who rushes into battle always win the fight...we know that is a no.....so I would have to say there is strength in different forms and shapes....

In a captive situation I believe the tortoise that can be calm and patient would have a better chance at a happier life within its forced confines....keeping in mind that a head strong...aggressive....pent up with frustration tortoise was not forced on the passive get along tortoise.....you know what I mean?

I have 4male CDTs....all of which have their own yards....three of them are head strong...bullish....confident...curious.....very male CDT types...which for their species is ideal and for my personality are a perfect match as I find them to be perfect and prime examples of what they are supposed to be (IMO) however, the fourth one...is the oldest....he is opposite as day is to night of the others....he is curious...he is active....he is not a bully whatsoever....I admire in him his apparent will to be....his will to me is much stronger than the others.....again, in my personal opinion...which we all have

 

[Yvonne G]

I just kind of have a sneaking suspicion that the bully just may, might could possibly be a male. Nothing to gauge this on other than the fact that in my collection of 15 different types of turtles and tortoises, the males are usually more aggressive than the females.

 

[GBtortoises]

I don't believe that there are "bullies" in the tortoise world, not in the sense that we of bullying in human terms. Bullies are someone that intimidates someone else because they can. Not for any justifiable or logical reason. Tortoises don't pick on other tortoises just to do it, they have a legitimate reason for their actions not emotionally tied as with human action. Within most species of tortoises, as with many other animals species, there is a natural order of dominance. With tortoises it is usually males that show the most aggressive forms of dominance. But, on rare occasions, especially when a male is not present, a large, usually older, female may take on the dominant role in a group. Typically male dominance ensures that the biggest and the strongest get to pass on their genes in order to foster a better chance of survival of a species. When a dominant male is removed from a group containing other males, another male will eventually step up to take the spot. If all males are removed quite often, (but not always) a female will take a more dominant role but not usually with the same persistent vigor as a male would. Usually when a male is re-introduced, that female will shortly thereafter succumb and allow the male to become dominant. In rare cases, some male tortoises aren't strongly dominant and may actually be dominated by a female. More often than not, that all changes during breeding season!

The main disadvantage in captivity that a tortoise being dominated has is that it is sometimes difficult to escape the persistent dominant aggression. In the wild it can escape by running and/or hiding. In captivity it is in a far smaller area and can usually easily be found by the dominate tortoise. This constant aggression can lead to high levels of stress for both animals but especially so for the more submissive.

I don't believe that a submissive male (or female) is any better or worse of a "pet" than a dominant one would be. I believe that it comes down to the situation that they are placed in.

 

[seetsjakers]

my male was 1/2 the size of the female, and he was a HUGE bully to her! sometimes I would separate them, just to give her a break(because he'd constantly bite her)....

 

[ascott]

GB....what you have outlined can be applied to just about every animal species....LOL....