Bullying or trying to mate????

[Ali]

Hello
A while since I was last on here. Since my last visit I now have a 2nd Russian tort called Shelby




Shelly's (the bigger one) carapace is now up to 17cm and little Shelby is 11cm neck to tail over the top.
Recently Shelly has started to beak at poor little Shelby. Slowly we are teaching her not to and when indoors she won't beak at her.
In the garden though its a different matter. Shelly will actively "hunt" down Shelby and start to nip at her.
A couple of times recently Shelly has mounted little Shelby from behind and looks like she is trying to mate.

Last winter before hibernation the vet reckoned they were both female as did the chap whom I bought them from . Shelly is 4 and Shelby is 2
Here is a couple of pictures of their underside if that can help decide if male or female

Shelly



Shelby

---

It could well be that Shelly is indeed a male and would henceforth be known as Bert
Can anyone out there help me decide Ta


Shelby's tail



Shelly's tail

 

[hunterk997]

It appears shelly looks like a male. And you're mot going to be able to teach either of them not to bite the other or attack. Unless you want possible maying, or bullying, or both, I would seperate them. And it's possible the male is attempting to mate. You said one tries to mount the other? If so that may be it.


Sent from my Ipod using the tortoiseforum app

 

[Levi the Leopard]

1-Shelly's (the bigger one) carapace is now up to 17cm and little Shelby is 11cm neck to tail over the top.

2-Recently Shelly has started to beak at poor little Shelby. Slowly we are teaching her not to and when indoors she won't beak at her.

3-In the garden though its a different matter. Shelly will actively "hunt" down Shelby and start to nip at her.
A couple of times recently Shelly has mounted little Shelby from behind and looks like she is trying to mate.

4-Last winter before hibernation the vet reckoned they were both female as did the chap whom I bought them from . Shelly is 4 and Shelby is 2
Here is a couple of pictures of their underside if that can help decide if male or female

1-How exactly did you measure? Try to measure a straight line and not a curved line over the back. I bring this up because in your hand they look smaller than the sizes you gave. ?? Size aides in guessing sex.

2- There is no "teaching her not to". You can not train a tortoise to "leave it" or sit or stay. Not trying to poke fun by commenting here. Simply trying to make you aware that this can't happen.

3-Mounting isn't always for mating. It's also dominance. I think in your case this is a dominance scenario.

4- I have 3 females and 1 male Russian. To ME based on those 2 pictures alone I don't see females. I see under developed males.. If you posted more pics I might see it differently. Others may chime in on what they see. But right now I don't see 2 girls.

Whether it's 2 girls fighting or 2 boys fighting, I'd recommend they live separately. My 4 do great together but they live outside full time in a very large heavily planted and busy pen. Plenty of space to get away. If I ever had to house them indoors or in a smaller area, I'd house them separately, too.

Others will be along to share with you their more experienced opinions. Until then, I hope mine help you.

 

[OCTortoiseGuy]

Shelly is indeed a boy and is trying to mate.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You added new pics after I posted.

Based on the new pictures, yes you have at least 1 male. I'm still leaning towards male on the other as well. It's still small and I'm just not sure it's a female.

 

[Ali]

That's some really good information there people Thanks

I had been led to believe that tortoises could be trained over time with lots of patience and perseverance but I take it that is an urban myth?

updated pictures with tape measure included






If they both are boys will the probem go away when they are both about the same size or will they always have a go at each other as they are both males?
The last thing I want is for either of them to be stressed
Cheers

 

[Levi the Leopard]

ok. Thanks for the measuring pictures.

The large one is a boy.

The small one could still go either way. It's small enough that you can't be positive on gender yet. IMO it'll show male eventually.

A 3"/8cm (even if female) russian is way to small to be bred. What you have is a dominance mounting.

I advise you let them live separately.

 

[Tom]

Whatever combination of sexes they are doesn't matter. Males will fight with males, females will fight with other females. Females will fight with males, etc.

Pairs are just a bad idea. It very seldom works out with most species, but especially not with russians. They are just little fighters. It can be done in a group with one big dominant male and several females in a large interesting outdoor enclosure, but even then it sometimes doesn't work and they have to be separated.

These two need their own separate enclosures ASAP. If it turns out you have a male and female, you can occasionally just put them together for breeding, but understand it can get very rough sometimes.

 

[Ali]

Ah thanks for the clarification. I'll get on the case with a 2nd enclosure for sleeping in .
The garden where they roam is about 10m x 8m and a mixture of lawn and flower beds where they are most of the day but will keep an eye on them

 

[jjsull33]

I say shelly is def a boy and I also agree the other is too young right now for an accurate sexing. Russians are notoriously aggressive, it won't likely ever subside, and if they are both males, then the second one might become just as aggressive and then you could have a dead tort. My male lived with my female for years with no problems, 9 years to be exact, and then one day he decided it was his enclosure and she wasn't welcome and tore up her leg. She is fine now and we don't have problems but I also don't chance it and never let them near eachother anymore let alone in the same enclosure. Another example, involving the same male, I recently added 2 more male russians to my home (separate enclosures) and was letting one of them roam my back yard for a while, my oldest male saw him through a slit in the side of his pen and spent the next hour pacing trying to get out just to chase off the one roaming the back yard which he perceives as his territory. I also say you should separate them, maybe even their outside one as well.

 

[Ali]

They have been best pals for the past 18 months since I got shelby.
They snuggled up in a corner every night together and never bothered each other until a few weeks ago.
Is this a maturity thing with Shelly reaching adulthood and asserting authority?

 

[jjsull33]

Like I said before, the same thing happened for my 2, except the peace lasted 9 years, I always associated it with him getting older and asserting his authority over his territory.
There is more than just physical bullying too, they are good at mentally bullying as well. Simple things such as pushing his way onto the food so the other tort cannot eat as much, or taking over good hiding spots/basking spots, these are all bullying as well and not always as noticeable.

 

[sibi]

It was already stated before that this behavior is not going away. It isn't related to maturity; it's in their nature to be territorial and to fight. It doesn't matter how long they've been nice together. The point is it doesn't last. So, please don't try to figure out the psychology of Russians because you can't. No one can. Separate them asap.

 

[Alan RF]

Reading all about Russians has now put me off getting a few more! I'll stick with one dominant male