Just a question about calcium. How much calcium should a Sulcata receive and how do we know we are giving them enough or too much. Could all of these bladder stone problems be not only because of a dry environment but also because we are giving them too much calcium? I wonder how much calcium a wild Sulcata gets just eating plants even though some plants do have a high amount of calcium. I would guess they come across animal bones and egg shells once in a while but just thinking out loud that maybe we are over doing it with the calcium supplements. I know mine will eat a cuttlebone every day if I let him.
CALCIUM AND BLADDER STONES
- Thread starter Clawem
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The local vet here http://www.pethospitalpq.com/ for me. who is globally recognized for tortoises' medicine, Dr. Boyer, has openly challenged the vet community to site one incidence of a bladder stone being caused by calcium intake. Or that a bladeer stone is a concreation of calcium for that matter. No one has answered that challenge.
Bladder stones are concretions of protein. Too much protein is not as likely as too little hydration if the overall diet is in line with what the tortoise consumes in the wild.
This correlates to wild tortoises as well captives has offered a guideline for captive husbandry. They do need protein, but also a good access to water.
The way to help mitigate protein balance is to make sure the diet has much roughage so that the GI tract can do the work it is supposed to do. When tortoises walk and move it does not stimulate the GI track like it does in none-shelled animals. The long fiber acts in such a way that the muscles that line the intestines can move a bolus of food. Without that semi indigestible fiber the food is to squishy and they can't move it along, resulting in a less well balanced absorption of food (molecular level).
For the longest time I had no idea what "long fiber" was. It's particles of plants that are big and lignified (made up word meaning having much lignan) such that they don't digest when the tortoise eats them, then subsequently poops. Like when you see grass blades in the poop or balled up grape vine leaves, or plantain leaves. The stuff between the veins has been digested, but the veins themselves are strong enough they survive the digestion process.
That's long fiber, and your tortoise needs it to be able to move the food about in the GI tract. Then you should not get bladder stones, as long as there is enough water.
Bladder stones are concretions of protein. Too much protein is not as likely as too little hydration if the overall diet is in line with what the tortoise consumes in the wild.
This correlates to wild tortoises as well captives has offered a guideline for captive husbandry. They do need protein, but also a good access to water.
The way to help mitigate protein balance is to make sure the diet has much roughage so that the GI tract can do the work it is supposed to do. When tortoises walk and move it does not stimulate the GI track like it does in none-shelled animals. The long fiber acts in such a way that the muscles that line the intestines can move a bolus of food. Without that semi indigestible fiber the food is to squishy and they can't move it along, resulting in a less well balanced absorption of food (molecular level).
For the longest time I had no idea what "long fiber" was. It's particles of plants that are big and lignified (made up word meaning having much lignan) such that they don't digest when the tortoise eats them, then subsequently poops. Like when you see grass blades in the poop or balled up grape vine leaves, or plantain leaves. The stuff between the veins has been digested, but the veins themselves are strong enough they survive the digestion process.
That's long fiber, and your tortoise needs it to be able to move the food about in the GI tract. Then you should not get bladder stones, as long as there is enough water.
Thank you for this explanation Will.
Thanks for the explanation. I have been feeding a lot of pelleted grass also with hay it looks like I should cut down on the pellets and use more of the hay. I had also read an article that stated the input of calcium for being bad for the tortoise is a fine line but it did not state what that fine line is. Looks like as Tom always says grass grass grass.
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Good question!! i've been wondering this for a while.
Thanks will!! You always helpful!
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I use grass pellets, but not as a pellet. I soak them in water overnight in the frig. About 5 to 7 times the volume of the pellets themselves. So one cup of pellets will get five cups of water. If they are too soaking wet I wring the expanded pellet in my fist over the next batch of pellets.
Then I mix them in with whatever is the leafy produce mix of the day. Some day I use dried broken up mulberry leaves (thanks mulberry angel).
A note of caution. You don't want to mix the giant square pellets of alfalfa with small (neonates) the can over consume to big a piece if it's mixed in with their greens. For the littlest guys I use a 1/4 inch dimater pellet of Bermuda/alfalfa, same process soaked over night and mixed in with their greens. I posted images of the labels of the pellets here on TFO somewhere.
This can include the ZooMed grassland or forest tortoise diet pellets as well. That's what started the process of using pellets on my tortoise Farm.
I was talking with a friend over the weekend, and she does not like the pellets as pellets either. She does not want them too wet as well.
I found by accident that you can wet them to expand them, then just let them dry out on a cookie sheet or something like that, then you have dried grass already more or less chopped up. Dry them under the breeze of a air return or something like that, even a fan.
In my interest to make the Cactus Chips as best I can I have found that heating any food item above 112F can denature (destroy) the modest amount of protein in the ideal diet items like grass. So please don't dry it in the oven. You'll loose some food value.
Then I mix them in with whatever is the leafy produce mix of the day. Some day I use dried broken up mulberry leaves (thanks mulberry angel).
A note of caution. You don't want to mix the giant square pellets of alfalfa with small (neonates) the can over consume to big a piece if it's mixed in with their greens. For the littlest guys I use a 1/4 inch dimater pellet of Bermuda/alfalfa, same process soaked over night and mixed in with their greens. I posted images of the labels of the pellets here on TFO somewhere.
This can include the ZooMed grassland or forest tortoise diet pellets as well. That's what started the process of using pellets on my tortoise Farm.
I was talking with a friend over the weekend, and she does not like the pellets as pellets either. She does not want them too wet as well.
I found by accident that you can wet them to expand them, then just let them dry out on a cookie sheet or something like that, then you have dried grass already more or less chopped up. Dry them under the breeze of a air return or something like that, even a fan.
In my interest to make the Cactus Chips as best I can I have found that heating any food item above 112F can denature (destroy) the modest amount of protein in the ideal diet items like grass. So please don't dry it in the oven. You'll loose some food value.
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When I feed the grass pellets (I use orchard grass pellets from tractor supply) I also soak them in warm water first. They so far won't eat them if they are not soaked. I also feed them orchard grass hay and this I also soak before I feed plus weeds and cactus and other goodies.
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
@Clawem .....I had a 17 yr old male 125 lb Sulcata whose urine looked just like yours. My advice to you would be that you start looking for a Vet NOW who can operate.His urine was creamy slimy not gritty. I first noticed how his urine looked in April, a Vet killed him in August. The Vet who killed Bob said he could do the surgery, yet his first words were, "Oh my, I've never seen one that big." His bladder stone is bigger than a softball. Remember, Not all Vet's know how to do surgery. Don't use Dr Burgess in Beaverton OR. Bob emptied his 2 gallon water dish daily. He went swimming almost daily. He was well hydrated and he still died, so being well hydrated means nothing. A man with a paper that says he can operate means nothing. Do a lot of research on the Vet, go to a Vet school and see if they have a CAT scan, so they can pinpoint the stone. I will never trust a Vet again. His organization, The Oregon Veterinarian Licensing Board
said the Vet did the MINIMUM necessary, and that was alright with them. He was completely still under anesthesia when they put him in my Camaro.
I promise you I can do a better operation then that Vet did, and I have been doing everything I can to take away their exotic licenses. I'm telling you to start looking for a Vet now, because not all exotic Vets can do surgery. I noticed Bob's urine and the pain involved in urinating in April, he was dead in August. Also, go to a site called Go Fund ME, and people will help you with money.
said the Vet did the MINIMUM necessary, and that was alright with them. He was completely still under anesthesia when they put him in my Camaro.
I promise you I can do a better operation then that Vet did, and I have been doing everything I can to take away their exotic licenses. I'm telling you to start looking for a Vet now, because not all exotic Vets can do surgery. I noticed Bob's urine and the pain involved in urinating in April, he was dead in August. Also, go to a site called Go Fund ME, and people will help you with money.
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
Here's his stone, I put my hand next to it so you can see the size. It's starting to flake off, even tho it's in an air tight jar that is not moved around.
