Calling All Members

[Yvonne G]

Let's see if we can try to make it easier on ourselves.

The tropical fish forum where I act as moderator has a system that seems to work pretty well. When a new members asks for help one of the older members says something like, "Please fill out the emergency template you'll find pinned at the top of the Health sub forum." Then the new member goes to "Health" and finds this:

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good" is not going to help your fish in need! Please also PROVIDE PICTURES of the fish and tank.
Please also add your location (country is enough!) so people don't recommend meds you can't obtain legally.

Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?)

What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies?

How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?)

What's the full stocking list?

Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish?

What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!)

How long is the tank running?

Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration?

What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?

What is the temperature?

What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH:
GH:
KH:
EC/TDS:
NO3:
NO2:
NH3/4:

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?)

Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)

What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)

What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)

Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)

Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank?

Are there any unknown animals in the tank?

What has been done already? (Timeline!)

If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)

Please provide pictures/videos of the fish AND tank in question!


If we use something like this it will save us all from having to type over and over the same questions. So, let's get together and make up the most important things you all want to know when dealing with a new member's questions.

Thanks for your help.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

These are the questions I find myself asking all the time. The problem is, sometimes not all questions are answered...

• What is your tortoise species, age and sex?
• Is your tortoise housed with other tortoises?
• What is your substrate?
• What is your humidity (percentage, basking are and overall)?
• What are your temperatures (basking and overall)?
• How often do you soak your tortoise? Does it have a water dish?
• What size is you enclosure? Is the enclosure open topped or a closed chamber?
• What is your tortoises diet? Do you use any supplementation?
• What UV and heating elements you use? What is your on and off cycle?
• What symptoms are presenting? (eating, pooping, peeing, changes in behavior etc.)?
• Any photos of the tortoise and enclosure will help!

 

[wellington]

I was on a forum that did this same thing. However, I believe when they went into the health section, they had to fill out the questionnaire first thing, before posting anything else in that section.
When it works, it's great. When it doesn't, well you know.

 

[wellington]

These are the questions I find myself asking all the time. The problem is, sometimes not all questions are answered...

• What is your tortoise species, age and sex?
• Is your tortoise housed with other tortoises?
• What is your substrate?
• What is your humidity (percentage, basking are and overall)?
• What are your temperatures (basking and overall)?
• How often do you soak your tortoise? Does it have a water dish?
• What size is you enclosure? Is the enclosure open topped or a closed chamber?
• What is your tortoises diet? Do you use any supplementation?
• What UV and heating elements you use? What is your on and off cycle?
• What symptoms are presenting? (eating, pooping, peeing, changes in behavior etc.)?
• Any photos of the tortoise and enclosure will help!

Most of these would work good.
I don't really think we need to know the on/off cycle of their lighting.
Temps should be basking, all over, night

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

And these could be great for tortoises too:
What has been done already? (Timeline!)

If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)

But the bigger problem is how we get people to answer these in the first place.

 

[Yvonne G]

And these could be great for tortoises too:
What has been done already? (Timeline!)

If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)

But the bigger problem is how we get people to answer these in the first place.

It's quite successful on the Apistograma forum

 

[wellington]

It's quite successful on the Apistograma forum

The forum I seen it on, I believe was a chicken forum. Not sure, it was a few years ago. It worked probably half the time. Half is better than not at all

 

[ZEROPILOT]

The Chameleon forum I frequent does this.
It's very helpful.

 

[Sarah2020]

I think we start with the list suggested which can evolve.... Please share with us steps on what is expected to happen and where template is etc.... no harm in trying 😊. I totally get the repeating questions and advise so it it helps let's try.

 

[SinLA]

I can't contribute to the list better than what other experts, but it might be helpful at the top of the list to say something to the effect of:

This forum combines the wisdom and experience of many keepers for many decades. Information you get here is likely to be different than "conventional wisdom" you get from other internet sites including those of other tortoise experts, breeders and even vets. Expect to hear information contrary to what you have been told, but it is in the best interest of your tortoise. If you take different or new advice as a personal insult or challenge, then you may not like what you hear. Remember that you came here seeking advice for help, you can choose to follow that advice or not, but getting angry at what you hear doesn't help anyone, certainly not your tortoise.

I'm sure that's too long winded, but you get the idea. Something the deflect the 90% of the time they get told something contrary to the pet store's advice.

 

[Tom]

I can't contribute to the list better than what other experts, but it might be helpful at the top of the list to say something to the effect of:

This forum combines the wisdom and experience of many keepers for many decades. Information you get here is likely to be different than "conventional wisdom" you get from other internet sites including those of other tortoise experts, breeders and even vets. Expect to hear information contrary to what you have been told, but it is in the best interest of your tortoise. If you take different or new advice as a personal insult or challenge, then you may not like what you hear. Remember that you came here seeking advice for help, you can choose to follow that advice or not, but getting angry at what you hear doesn't help anyone, certainly not your tortoise.

I'm sure that's too long winded, but you get the idea. Something the deflect the 90% of the time they get told something contrary to the pet store's advice.

I like this idea, and I feel it is important to start with this sort of disclaimer to lessen the "shock" people feel when we tell them that all of the "research" they've done over the last several months was all wrong and from all the usual wrong sources. Taking a page from the ever-eloquent Yvonne, I would leave the more negative aspects out, or try to find a way to word them less confrontationally. Many people do take it as a personal insult or challenge, but I don't want to lead them in that direction right off the bat. I like the tone to be more of, "Hey, we are here to help...", instead of telling them how much they are gonna want to fight with us over what is being said. Diplomacy. I'm not great at it, but I've learned to get better at it over the years from some excellent role models here.

 

[Tom]

Let's see if we can try to make it easier on ourselves.

The tropical fish forum where I act as moderator has a system that seems to work pretty well. When a new members asks for help one of the older members says something like, "Please fill out the emergency template you'll find pinned at the top of the Health sub forum." Then the new member goes to "Health" and finds this:

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good" is not going to help your fish in need! Please also PROVIDE PICTURES of the fish and tank.
Please also add your location (country is enough!) so people don't recommend meds you can't obtain legally.

Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?)

What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies?

How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?)

What's the full stocking list?

Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish?

What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!)

How long is the tank running?

Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration?

What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?

What is the temperature?

What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH:
GH:
KH:
EC/TDS:
NO3:
NO2:
NH3/4:

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?)

Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)

What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)

What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)

Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)

Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank?

Are there any unknown animals in the tank?

What has been done already? (Timeline!)

If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)

Please provide pictures/videos of the fish AND tank in question!


If we use something like this it will save us all from having to type over and over the same questions. So, let's get together and make up the most important things you all want to know when dealing with a new member's questions.

Thanks for your help.

Here is my list:
What species, size, and age?
What size and type of enclosure? Indoors or out?
What substrate? How thick and how damp?
What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area, and over night low?
What heating and lighting equipment?
What type of UV bulb?
What do you feed the tortoise?

I've been keeping tropical fish since I was a little kid and I found that fish list above to be a little, shall we say, off-putting... Its too much and just reading all those questions was a little annoying. I'm not trying to be insulting to whoever wrote all of that. I'm just sharing feed back. A list that extensive is going to put people off, as it did me, and I don't want to do that with our tortoise list here. I try to keep my questions for new people as succinct and to the point as possible. Upon getting the answers to the above equations, there may be follow-up questions, but those answers should allow us to figure out most issues.

That is my two cents on the matter. Good topic Yvonne. I like this idea. Its a time saver.

 

[TammyJ]

I agree with what Tom has said basically, about the possible off-putting effect that an up front "disclaimer" might have, and would immediately have on some people, especially those in a real emergency situation and already very scared and upset. I know that I would also be turned off by being confronted with an impersonal barrage of seemingly, to me in my desperate state, irrelevant and annoying questions. However, I agree with the idea and I do think it would be good to do it if it's not going to put off people. Not too many questions to start with, anyway, I am thinking. That's my "two cents".

 

[KarenSoCal]

I agree that the fish list is overwhelming. The list written by the 4 toed Edward, I think, while being an excellent list, is also too cumbersome. A sizeable number of posts we get from newbies are written in a panic because the tort is sick or dying. If I was in that situation, I would look at those lists and say the heck with this and search for help somewhere else, even though that would be a bad decision. I think Tom's shorter list is better.

As to the disclaimer, it does come across rather strongly even though the content is true and needs to be said. How about lightening it up a bit like this...

Hello!
Whether you are a "newby" tortoise keeper, have been keeping torts for years, or somewhere in between, welcome to TFO! If you've never visited our forum before you are now at the best site on the internet for up to date, accurate, experimentally verified info on tort housing, feeding, equipment, and medical care, provided by experts. Our members include those who have done side-by-side experiments over long time periods and have absolutely established the best methods yet discovered for starting hatchlings, then passing through the juvenile period, the yearling, the coming of age (you will finally know if it's a boy or girl!), and eventually adulthood. We have members who have been the first to accomplish milestones, and members who have successfully incubated multiple clutches of eggs year after year with no losses. And we have members who have traveled to the native countries of different species of tortoises and studied them in their natural habitat.

There are lots of places to get info on keeping tortoises. We know that if you haven't already, you will check out Facebook pages and groups, talk to pet shop employees, listen to what somebody's brother's friend's aunt had to say, maybe call a breeder, and possibly discuss care with your dog's vet. The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get is just plain wrong. It's old and it's outdated, it's how they've always done it, it's what the store manager said to say, it's what they read in a Google search, it's how the breeder's dad did it; and your dog's vet doesn't really know because he never had a course in vet school on tortoises. And sad but true...many keepers and breeders are so set in their ways that even when presented with proof that a new method works better, they just won't listen.

Please, if you think you've found a gem of wisdom from any other place, please run it by us first. Give us the chance to tell you why it might be a terrible idea. All of our members are here to not only learn from others, but they give their time, energy, and expertise away to others for free. If you've already made mistakes with your tortoise care, we will tell you what's wrong and how to fix it, even if you aren't real happy with our assessment of your husbandry. We're here for your tortoise's benefit, and will do what's needed to help you help him.

So let's talk tortoise! 🐢

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I agree that the fish list is overwhelming. The list written by the 4 toed Edward, I think, while being an excellent list, is also too cumbersome. A sizeable number of posts we get from newbies are written in a panic because the tort is sick or dying. If I was in that situation, I would look at those lists and say the heck with this and search for help somewhere else, even though that would be a bad decision. I think Tom's shorter list is better.

As to the disclaimer, it does come across rather strongly even though the content is true and needs to be said. How about lightening it up a bit like this...

Hello!
Whether you are a "newby" tortoise keeper, have been keeping torts for years, or somewhere in between, welcome to TFO! If you've never visited our forum before you are now at the best site on the internet for up to date, accurate, experimentally verified info on tort housing, feeding, equipment, and medical care, provided by experts. Our members include those who have done side-by-side experiments over long time periods and have absolutely established the best methods yet discovered for starting hatchlings, then passing through the juvenile period, the yearling, the coming of age (you will finally know if it's a boy or girl!), and eventually adulthood. We have members who have been the first to accomplish milestones, and members who have successfully incubated multiple clutches of eggs year after year with no losses. And we have members who have traveled to the native countries of different species of tortoises and studied them in their natural habitat.

There are lots of places to get info on keeping tortoises. We know that if you haven't already, you will check out Facebook pages and groups, talk to pet shop employees, listen to what somebody's brother's friend's aunt had to say, maybe call a breeder, and possibly discuss care with your dog's vet. The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get is just plain wrong. It's old and it's outdated, it's how they've always done it, it's what the store manager said to say, it's what they read in a Google search, it's how the breeder's dad did it; and your dog's vet doesn't really know because he never had a course in vet school on tortoises. And sad but true...many keepers and breeders are so set in their ways that even when presented with proof that a new method works better, they just won't listen.

Please, if you think you've found a gem of wisdom from any other place, please run it by us first. Give us the chance to tell you why it might be a terrible idea. All of our members are here to not only learn from others, but they give their time, energy, and expertise away to others for free. If you've already made mistakes with your tortoise care, we will tell you what's wrong and how to fix it, even if you aren't real happy with our assessment of your husbandry. We're here for your tortoise's benefit, and will do what's needed to help you help him.

So let's talk tortoise! 🐢

I love the way you’ve wrote this!

 

[COmtnLady]

I really like this idea.

'Also was put off with the length and technicality of the fish list (though, when I've had aquarium probs in the past, we did eventually cover at least 90% of that).

The friendlier intro paragraphs are much less challenging. I vote to incorporate them, or much of them, into the final pages.
A tiny suggestion for clarity: the sentence that says, "The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get is just plain wrong. " I'd like to see, "from those sources" inserted after the word "get". "The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get from those sources is just plain wrong. "

This is a very good idea. Gold star for Yvonne!

 

[KarenSoCal]

I love the way you’ve wrote this!

Thank you!

 

[KarenSoCal]

The friendlier intro paragraphs are much less challenging. I vote to incorporate them, or much of them, into the final pages.
A tiny suggestion for clarity: the sentence that says, "The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get is just plain wrong. " I'd like to see, "from those sources" inserted after the word "get". "The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get from those sources is just plain wrong. "

Rewritten to add @COmtnLady 's suggestion...

Hello!
Whether you are a "newby" tortoise keeper, have been keeping torts for years, or somewhere in between, welcome to TFO! If you've never visited our forum before you are now at the best site on the internet for up to date, accurate, experimentally verified info on tort housing, feeding, equipment, and medical care, provided by experts. Our members include those who have done side-by-side experiments over long time periods and have absolutely established the best methods yet discovered for starting hatchlings, then passing through the juvenile period, the yearling, the coming of age (you will finally know if it's a boy or girl!), and eventually adulthood. We have members who have been the first to accomplish milestones, and members who have successfully incubated multiple clutches of eggs year after year with no losses. And we have members who have traveled to the native countries of different species of tortoises and studied them in their natural habitat.
There are lots of places to get info on keeping tortoises. We know that if you haven't already, you will check out Facebook pages and groups, talk to pet shop employees, listen to what somebody's brother's friend's aunt had to say, maybe call a breeder, and possibly discuss care with your dog's vet. The problem with this is that most of the "advice" you will get from those sources is just plain wrong. It's old and it's outdated, it's how they've always done it, it's what the store manager said to say, it's what they read in a Google search, it's how the breeder's dad did it; and your dog's vet doesn't really know because he never had a course in vet school on tortoises. And sad but true...many keepers and breeders are so set in their ways that even when presented with proof that a new method works better, they just won't listen.
Please, if you think you've found a gem of wisdom from any other place, please run it by us first. Give us the chance to tell you why it might be a terrible idea. All of our members are here to not only learn from others, but they give their time, energy, and expertise away to others for free. If you've already made mistakes with your tortoise care, we will tell you what's wrong and how to fix it, even if you aren't real happy with our assessment of your husbandry. We're here for your tortoise's benefit, and will do what's needed to help you help him.
So let's talk tortoise! 🐢

 

[Fluffy]

I would like to chime in here if you'll allow. I read the forum every day and I've been around a long time. I've noticed some changes on the board the last year or so and it's been bothering me. They kinda relate to this topic so I hope this can spur a constructive conversation. First this forum has without a doubt, the best information to be found anywhere. I think the list of questions is a good idea. With that in mind I would like to point out a few things.
First and foremost, we have no idea who the person asking the question is. We don't know their age, experience level or even if English is their first language. I too often see people argue with or attack someone who it appears to me is either a child or not proficient in english. I think it would be helpful to remember that the person may not be an adult or english speaking. They could even be using google translate.
Another thing to remember is not everyone learns the same way. Tom's care sheets are great but not everyone retains information well from reading. When someone has been watching youtube it may very well be because they are visual learners. It bugs me when people say "all" the info on youtube is wrong. It's just not true. There is bad information on there but there is bad information everywhere. Some of our members post youtube videos. Garden State Tortoise has great informational videos. So telling people it's all wrong is just not true.
Another big thing I think we need to remember is that when someone new comes here they don't know any of us. The information on this forum is no more reliable to them than anywhere else. When we just attack everything they've been told it's not always going to be received well. We shouldn't expect people to just blindly believe what they're being told. I have seen people be told that everything they've read on the internet is wrong. I have news for everyone, THIS is on the internet lol. It also goes with everything on facebook or from pet stores is wrong. I agree a lot is wrong if not most but blanket statements like that are probably not the best way to get our information across to someone. There has to be a softer way to tell people the best info is here.
Also we need to understand that tortoises are very resilient. Not everything is an instant death sentence. People have spent a lot of money doing what they thought is right and they come here and are told they need to change everything immediately. There are very few things that need change immediately to prevent death. We should tell them what's most important to do first. Not everyone has unlimited funds and finding out it's all wrong can be very deflating. Like saying you must have a minimum 4x8 indoor inclosure. Not everyone has a big house or room for something that size. Having 4x8 is an opinion and we know nothing that says a 3x8 or 3x10 or some other size won't work just as well. There are a lot of factors that go into how big an indoor enclosure has to be. Like how much outside time are they getting. Maybe it's just for nights or inclimate weather. We all know bigger is better but a few weeks or months in a small enclosure with adequate outdoor time is not going to kill a tortoise. We don't need to overwhelm them with everything at once. They should do what's most important first.
I hope that this is taken how it was intended, that is to try to get the best information available out there to help the most animals we can. If we run people off, all of the work people on here have done is for nothing. Sorry for rambling on.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I would like to chime in here if you'll allow. I read the forum every day and I've been around a long time. I've noticed some changes on the board the last year or so and it's been bothering me. They kinda relate to this topic so I hope this can spur a constructive conversation. First this forum has without a doubt, the best information to be found anywhere. I think the list of questions is a good idea. With that in mind I would like to point out a few things.
First and foremost, we have no idea who the person asking the question is. We don't know their age, experience level or even if English is their first language. I too often see people argue with or attack someone who it appears to me is either a child or not proficient in english. I think it would be helpful to remember that the person may not be an adult or english speaking. They could even be using google translate.
Another thing to remember is not everyone learns the same way. Tom's care sheets are great but not everyone retains information well from reading. When someone has been watching youtube it may very well be because they are visual learners. It bugs me when people say "all" the info on youtube is wrong. It's just not true. There is bad information on there but there is bad information everywhere. Some of our members post youtube videos. Garden State Tortoise has great informational videos. So telling people it's all wrong is just not true.
Another big thing I think we need to remember is that when someone new comes here they don't know any of us. The information on this forum is no more reliable to them than anywhere else. When we just attack everything they've been told it's not always going to be received well. We shouldn't expect people to just blindly believe what they're being told. I have seen people be told that everything they've read on the internet is wrong. I have news for everyone, THIS is on the internet lol. It also goes with everything on facebook or from pet stores is wrong. I agree a lot is wrong if not most but blanket statements like that are probably not the best way to get our information across to someone. There has to be a softer way to tell people the best info is here.
Also we need to understand that tortoises are very resilient. Not everything is an instant death sentence. People have spent a lot of money doing what they thought is right and they come here and are told they need to change everything immediately. There are very few things that need change immediately to prevent death. We should tell them what's most important to do first. Not everyone has unlimited funds and finding out it's all wrong can be very deflating. Like saying you must have a minimum 4x8 indoor inclosure. Not everyone has a big house or room for something that size. Having 4x8 is an opinion and we know nothing that says a 3x8 or 3x10 or some other size won't work just as well. There are a lot of factors that go into how big an indoor enclosure has to be. Like how much outside time are they getting. Maybe it's just for nights or inclimate weather. We all know bigger is better but a few weeks or months in a small enclosure with adequate outdoor time is not going to kill a tortoise. We don't need to overwhelm them with everything at once. They should do what's most important first.
I hope that this is taken how it was intended, that is to try to get the best information available out there to help the most animals we can. If we run people off, all of the work people on here have done is for nothing. Sorry for rambling on.

@Fluffy thank you! It's almost the same concerns I have myself. Another thing is that we scare off some of the experienced keepers who certainly understand what and why they are doing. I wish there were more advanced topics discussions (I'm fascinated by some older threads there).