Can I keep a baby Central Bearded Dragon with my baby tortoise

SoupCookie

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So my dad out of the blue brought home a baby (I think) Central Beaded Dragon, the dragon was then dropped into my baby Padloper tortoises' enclosure, with about 6 very small crickets :/... Unfortunately the planned bigger enclosure for my tortoise won't here until at least Saturday, so they will either have to live together for a week (or 2 [max]).

Basically, is it safe to keep the 2 together in the same enclosure for that time? Should I be worried that one might attack the other, or that the tiny crickets will cause anything bad to happen??

If it should be that the tort and dragon can't live together at all, I'll move the dragon to a small container immediately for the time being.
If it should be that the crickets will be a problem, then the enclosure will be cleaned out tomorrow first thing. (or otherwise only when the new enclosure arrives)
 

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Ink

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They need to be separated. ASAP. Search the forum about a bearded dragon attacking their tortoise.
 

SoupCookie

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They need to be separated. ASAP. Search the forum about a bearded dragon attacking their tortoise.
omw wtf did I just see... Dude, thanks for giving the warning, google doesn't point out this danger at all, I'm separating them asap...

For those with the same question, 100% NO, https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/tortoise-not-eating-after-attack.180898/ You should not keep them in the same enclosure, please be warned that this post contains blood, so if your squeamish, don't open it and just separate them
 

Ink

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Thank you for asking!!! Very scary
 

TaylorTortoise

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So my dad out of the blue brought home a baby (I think) Central Beaded Dragon, the dragon was then dropped into my baby Padloper tortoises' enclosure, with about 6 very small crickets :/... Unfortunately the planned bigger enclosure for my tortoise won't here until at least Saturday, so they will either have to live together for a week (or 2 [max]).

Basically, is it safe to keep the 2 together in the same enclosure for that time? Should I be worried that one might attack the other, or that the tiny crickets will cause anything bad to happen??

If it should be that the tort and dragon can't live together at all, I'll move the dragon to a small container immediately for the time being.
If it should be that the crickets will be a problem, then the enclosure will be cleaned out tomorrow first thing. (or otherwise only when the new enclosure arrives)
The bearded dragon already looks defensive by the way his body and face is propped. Like he’s in an attack mode. I would check your tort to make sure no bite marks or signs of stress occur during that time.
 

mastershake

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never mix any other animal with a bearded dragon or a baby tortoise. either way its a no.
 

SoupCookie

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The bearded dragon already looks defensive by the way his body and face is propped. Like he’s in an attack mode. I would check your tort to make sure no bite marks or signs of stress occur during that time.
Yes, I moved my tort out asap, until Saturday where he'll get a new, bigger, better enclosure, I did make sure that the tort didn't get hurt, and seems fine, tort is still social, so I don't think anything bad happened, thankfully

Tort did also not attack the beardy, so everyone seems to come out safe
 

SoupCookie

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I would also post pics of the torts enclosure as it looks from the little I could see, improvements are needed.
Yes, it barely fits the minimum requirements, the plan was to upgrade next year to something bigger, but with the new pet it was moved to Saturday, then the beardy will get the small enclosure until we can afford to build another big enclosure

Here are pics of the enclosure, we plan on turning it into a Corn Snake enclosure once we have an upgrade for the baby, we're going to change the top so there is no opening, change how the heating works and then add some props for the snake to sliver around on/underneath

If you're wondering, the enclosure we're going to build for tort will be 2x longer/wider on the x and z axis and and a little shorter on the y axis, since we won't need so much height, that will then be torts home, we might even build something even bigger afterwards, then move tort to the even bigger enclosure and then the lil lizard to that enclosure
 

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wellington

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Glad to read you are already planning on a larger tort enclosure. Muscle problems can occur when they don't have enough room to roam around and then they can't walk properly. I already rescued and rehabbed a leopard that was kept in too small an enclosure. Also do not use straw or hay for a substrate. Orchid bark or coconut coir or the combo of the two.
 

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Noted, won't make that mistake again, I'll be sure to keep all future reptiles in their own enclosure (hopefully we won't get any more surprises)
The crickets can also damage the tortoise or the dragon. Crickets will come out at night and chew on a sleeping reptile. You should only put in what they will immediately eat, and I prefer roaches for this reason and several other reasons too.
 

Tortobsessed

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I think you got lots of great advice but I might be able to help a bit for the beardie. As an adult it will need a minimum of 8-10 square feet (the more the better). They will also climb, so providing climbing branches (not too tall but a way for enrichment and extra basking) is a very, very good idea. Crickets should never be let loose in a tank (unless you can catch all uneaten ones after ~10 minutes; I always put my reptiles in a different enclosure for feeding loose crickets) since they can kill a terrestrial reptile (especially leopard geckos but they can cause damage to beardies). I keep crickets in an escape proof dish with their legs popped (dislocated). I also always keep a carrot or something so the crickets have something to eat other than the reptile if they do escape. The ideal food is dubia roaches with a variety and supplemental feeders like BSFL, hornworms, or silkworms. Mealworms, superworms, and waxworms can also be fed as a very rare treat (they have little to no nutritional value). They should be given access to fresh salads daily (the larger variety of foods the better, I don't have any plant-eating reptiles so I'm not sure on the details). Paper towels or slate tiles are the safest substrate for a bearded dragon but provide little enrichment (I recommend them for first-time keepers). Compacted topsoil/clay mix can also work (be sure there aren't any fertilizers) and provides good enrichment. However, impaction is a problem and can sometimes be deadly. Sand should NEVER be used since it can cause shedding problems, impaction, and it is nothing like their wild environment.
 

mastershake

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since we specialize in bearded dragons here im going to mention a few things about the above comment. actually dubia roaches should not be a staple bug they are to high in protein. they are fine to feed in moderation but not as a staple. you are far better with mealies or even properly gut loaded super worms. roaches also can be what we call gout bombs in beardies if they are not fed properly before feeding off to the dragons. sand is just fine to use if you use the correct type (regular kids play sand) you should never use any of the calci sands or vitasand etc. we specialize in beardies here and have for many many years. we work with breeders all over the country and take in rescue / sick animals weekly to rehab. i can answer ANY questions about beardies anyone may have. crickets are also fine as long as they are not left in the tank overnight or they are dehydrated and or hungry then yes they may bite. crickets make a great staple daily bug but i understand why some dont want to deal with them. i can also direct you to a good group who actually has proper information on it over on facebook. we have over 70 dragons at the moment and sometimes have more it depends on if we have had adoptions or not at the time.
 

Tortobsessed

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Bearded dragons ideally need a 1.5-2:1 ca: p ratio. I don't know of any feeder (except BSFL) that can achieve that ratio on their own (without dusting/gut loading). I think a variety is the best choice (no feeder is perfect, they each have pros and cons) but dubias are often referred to as the best realistic feeder (realistic meaning easy to find, most people can't feed BSFL or silkworms daily). Dubia roaches only cause gout if they were fed food high in protein (which they store as uric acid which is passed on to the reptile). Mealworms and superworms are both extremely high in fat and chitin with very little calcium or nutrients. Dubias are better to gut load as they eat more which means more goes to the reptile.
Sand has been an ongoing debate with little change so I don't think we need to discuss that. I don't see a benefit to it and I don't recommend it. I've heard of geckos dying from impaction, respiratory issues, and other secondary issues from sand. If someone does want to use it I recommend they mix it with topsoil and/or clay. I agree that calcium and vitamin sands aren't suitable.
I think it's great that you are rescuing so many beardies (which many people buy without understanding their needs, especially enclosure size). What enclosures do you use to keep that many beardies?
 

mastershake

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i build all of our enclosures myself here. i only use xpvc now. we have a large ish facility. dragons are only one of the species we have here. the issue with dubia is most people do not feed them properly then they maintain the uric acid levels this is the reason for the gout issue. if they are being used as a feeder the ONLY things they should be fed is what the dragons should be eating. no fruit, no berries, nothing like carrots etc. gut loading means feeding them things the dragons are supposed to have. this is rare for people to do. supers also should be part of a varied diet you should never feed only one insect. simple as that. which means there is no true "staple" but if someone had to pick one i hate to say crickets are the best readily available (i hate crickets personally but they should be part of the diet) it doesnt matter if dubia can eat more. the issue here is people feed lets say 15 crickets. so they think they should feed 15 dubia. no. the dubia should be fed in proportion to the higher protein levels. so depending on feeder size you need to adjust the amount you feed. most people do not understand that nor do many want to. they just say well they are still hungry so they let them eat more. we see some SEVERELY OBESE dragons come on here from people and the main diet is 99% of the time only roaches. it takes forever for a dragon who is that heavy to loose that weight and can cause death (heart issues etc). true that its sometimes hard to find other feeders ill agree there. silkworms are for all intent and purposes prob the best overall feeder (imo) but they are impossible for most people to properly keep and breed. we breed them here along with pretty much every other feeder we use. im not saying never to feed dubia but one needs to know how to properly feed them in PROPORTION. i see WAYYYYY to many times people say oh just feed the dubia dog food. no. never. do not do this. it will not only be bad for the dragon but also for the roaches. and then if fed dog food they should NEVER be used as feeders for the dragons unless you clean them our for a long enough time.the the uric acid still remains an issue for the roaches. as far as sand im strictly talking about dragons not geckos etc. play sand is fine to use. if you are a brand new keeper i do recc tile or paper towels. but play sand is fine if you have a correct setup and temps. we have been doing this over 30 years now.
 

Tortobsessed

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I agree, I try to feed all of my animals as large of a variety as possible. I don't think a lot of owners understand gut-loading which is why it's important to educate them. I've tried breeding silkworms but I never got them very far. I'm going to try breeding hornworms sometime and see if I have better luck. I get some crickets every once in a while but I hate them (though I might try a different species next time). What feeder species do you breed? I've tried breeding a ton of species but haven't been successful. The only reason I could see dog food being used is to start a roach colony but the roaches getting fed off should never eat it. It's not the ideal food for the roaches and especially not for ones being fed.
 

SoupCookie

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The crickets can also damage the tortoise or the dragon. Crickets will come out at night and chew on a sleeping reptile. You should only put in what they will immediately eat, and I prefer roaches for this reason and several other reasons too.
Yes, we plan on cleaning out the entire enclosure this weekend, then replace the substrate, remove all other life from the enclosure so the little guy can thrive, we also got some dubia roaches, which I also prefer highly above crickets

Thanks for the advice :)
 

SoupCookie

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I think you got lots of great advice but I might be able to help a bit for the beardie. As an adult it will need a minimum of 8-10 square feet (the more the better). They will also climb, so providing climbing branches (not too tall but a way for enrichment and extra basking) is a very, very good idea. Crickets should never be let loose in a tank (unless you can catch all uneaten ones after ~10 minutes; I always put my reptiles in a different enclosure for feeding loose crickets) since they can kill a terrestrial reptile (especially leopard geckos but they can cause damage to beardies). I keep crickets in an escape proof dish with their legs popped (dislocated). I also always keep a carrot or something so the crickets have something to eat other than the reptile if they do escape. The ideal food is dubia roaches with a variety and supplemental feeders like BSFL, hornworms, or silkworms. Mealworms, superworms, and waxworms can also be fed as a very rare treat (they have little to no nutritional value). They should be given access to fresh salads daily (the larger variety of foods the better, I don't have any plant-eating reptiles so I'm not sure on the details). Paper towels or slate tiles are the safest substrate for a bearded dragon but provide little enrichment (I recommend them for first-time keepers). Compacted topsoil/clay mix can also work (be sure there aren't any fertilizers) and provides good enrichment. However, impaction is a problem and can sometimes be deadly. Sand should NEVER be used since it can cause shedding problems, impaction, and it is nothing like their wild environment.
Thank you :)

We are planning on upgrading his enclosure next year, to something the size similar to what we're building for tort, just a bit higher, so he can climb and enjoy

As for the substrate info, thank you :) I was about to start searching up what we can provide him with :)

Yes, with food we are planning on giving him dubia roaches and mealworms mostly (for insects) and then a salid daily with 3 or so different items in it, about the same as we try to do with baby tort :)
 

SoupCookie

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since we specialize in bearded dragons here im going to mention a few things about the above comment. actually dubia roaches should not be a staple bug they are to high in protein. they are fine to feed in moderation but not as a staple. you are far better with mealies or even properly gut loaded super worms. roaches also can be what we call gout bombs in beardies if they are not fed properly before feeding off to the dragons. sand is just fine to use if you use the correct type (regular kids play sand) you should never use any of the calci sands or vitasand etc. we specialize in beardies here and have for many many years. we work with breeders all over the country and take in rescue / sick animals weekly to rehab. i can answer ANY questions about beardies anyone may have. crickets are also fine as long as they are not left in the tank overnight or they are dehydrated and or hungry then yes they may bite. crickets make a great staple daily bug but i understand why some dont want to deal with them. i can also direct you to a good group who actually has proper information on it over on facebook. we have over 70 dragons at the moment and sometimes have more it depends on if we have had adoptions or not at the time.
I see, thanks for mentioning that dubia roaches should not be a staple bug, I was about to make that mistake :')
And thanks for all the other info, I'll defs ask if any more questions pop up :)
 
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