Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

[Mick.Ire]

FLINTUS, I hold you in the highest respect and always enjoy our interactions here on the forum. I love it that you don't just accept things, but you are never rude, inappropriate or out of line. I did mot take your comments personally at all. If a person like me has such strong opinions, I should be able to defend and explain them, and you make me do exactly that sometimes. I have not noticed this patronizing behavior that you speak of, but if ever I seemed guilty of that, I will apologize right now. I don't think Americans have any sort of monopoly on knowledge or experience with much of anything. I have seen dummies and true geniuses both here and abroad, in regards to many subjects. IF I am inclined to judge, I will do it by the individual, not the individuals country. I hope that my intent on my "Ireland" comment was clear, and that is only that sulcata and leopard tortoises are more common in Southern California than they are in Ireland. I meant nothing more than that.

Admittedly, the deaths that you would like evidence of are rare. (A fact that Mick is happily spinning in his favor.) They are rare because people here know NOT to put them together. And if they do put them together they usually have the sense to separate them when one tortoise starts getting knocked around. The point is not how many have actually been killed, the point is that they can and will try to kill each other sometimes if given the chance. Now I have not seen thousands of these cases, but I have seen dozens. I have seen pictures of redfoots, Russians, leopards and other sulcatas that were split open and killed by male sulcatas. We had a thread on this forum not long ago with pictures of a tortoise that had been split open by a big sulcata, and another with shell damage and a crippled leg. In my travels I will try to get pics of these horrible events and post them here. I prefer not to post such gruesomeness on a family oriented forum, but as usual, some people aren't willing to take another persons word for it. Why I, or anyone else would fabricate something like this makes no sense, but I guess that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that every male sulcata will try to kill every other tortoise on sight. That would be ridiculous. I AM saying that some of the time they will, and putting them together, especially with a smaller and much less aggressive species is taking a big risk, and it shouldn't happen.

Tom I think we got off on the wrong foot. I understand where your coming from and are trying to steer new keepers in the right direction.

I already said I don't want to see pic's of injured tortoises, words from people it has happened to will do fine so I hope "In my travels I will try to get pics of these horrible events and post them here. I prefer not to post such gruesomeness on a family oriented forum, but as usual, some people aren't willing to take another persons word for it." was not aimed at me.

I really think you are over dramatizing the risk of keeping Sulcatas and leopards together. You say it has happened and I believe you, but you say it hasn't happened often because most people don't practice keeping them together and separate if they see any aggression. This is where I disagree, there are thousands of people in the UK and Ireland housing these two species together, I can only imagine of the number of people doing it in the US. If it was such a risk there would be a lot of deaths, not just in private collection but in zoo's and animal parks.
Keeping a horsfield with an adult sulcata is completely wrong practice. An adult Leopard tortoise is a different story, even a male, they are a large robust species. The risk of a adult leopard getting injured by a adult sulcata is extremely minimal. Or any Leopard of a comparable size to a sulcata. There is just as much risk a sulcata hurting another sulcata yet I take it your not against the housing of multiple sulcatas. There is more risk of spurthighs or horsfields doing damage to their own kind than a sulcata doing damage to a leopard.
The risk is so insignificant it is not an issue.
I stated my thoughts on the pathogen issue so won't repeat myself and annoy Crice, the risk with CB sulcatas and leopards is the same as any CB species out there.
I can understand why some thought your initial posts was patronizing to me and mine might have been also in reply. I fight fire with fire, I apologise for this because as you said this a friendly family forum for people to learn.

 

[FLINTUS]

Going back to gregarious behavior, I observed many groups of Aldabras in Mauritius. Both adults and hatchling groups which were sometimes 50+. Some of these were at hotels! The lowest number of them I saw in an enclosure was 3, 2 females and 1 male. They are not massively gregarious in behavior-compared to tortoises like red foots which may actually call to each other from different parts of the enclosure- but they are extremely docile, and as such get along in groups which are even male heavy.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have two male aldabrans together and they have never shown any aggression - not towards each other and not towards people.

 

[ICUSleeping]

Wow..a lot to read, a lot to take in..some of which I already knew , some new...first off leopard / sulcatas Woooooo HOLD THE PHONE no crap always wondered never saw proof incredible to say the least.

The topic I wanna touch on is aggression.

Let's start with charlie my youngest sully.
He/she will be 1 and completely opposite of my oldest sully zeus who will be 2.

Zeus never started to show aggression till a few months ago.

By aggression I mean raming and his attitude towards charlie. The minute zeus sees charlie its like he narrows in on the little guy and will stop at nothing to get to him. He will knock stuff over he will climb and ram.

I left zeus alone( no supervision) with charlie once (when i first got charlie) and that was the last time, let me tell u why.

I walked in the house to tend to my daughter(3) and come back out side some time later to find charlie on his back pined in a corner while zeus repeatedly rammed in to him I watched him do it over n over. I had read post on here I knew it wasnt a good idea. Trial n error my friend. So I tryed one more time but kept an eye out and good thing I did cause zeuse ran full force at charlie.

Zeus is dominating, demanding, aggressive and I love him to pieces. Charlie is sweet timid and shows no signs of aggression ...yet. Its a matter of time tho.

They are both still small but they will grow to have a very very BIG personality. They already do In Their own way.

I keep them housed separate at all times. They are kept outside during the day seperatly but able to see each other. I keep interaction with them very minable. only supervised interaction from now on. I mean why take my chances right? Iv already seen what I needed to see literally the very first time I took a chance.

keeping the same species together is 50/50 literally . Their are people on here who have nooooo problem with housing same and different species together and others like me who read and try and fail. So to each their own we all learn some how.

I'm just glad I have this place I can come to and read and learn and ask questions and try n help other people who can sometimes be naive.

MY opinion MY 2 cents on this hole subject is this. Dont mix breeds , dont house them together , dont take a chance with the what if's.
Every animal alive has aggression most breeds (sulcatas) more then others, do your research, listen , read , take it all in and learn. Their is not 1 person on here that rules the "I know it all tort" title BUT their are ALOT of members experienced members that some people should just listen too because they just might have experiences in something or about something u dont. And I'm not directing that towards anyone I'm just sayin in general.

Here is my big man zeus and my lil girl charlie. No I dont know the sex for sure but they gotta be something. To ME I think zeus is a boy and charlie will turn out to be a girl. But who knows I could have to females , to males or zeus might be a girl and charlie might be a boy whooo knows.

All i know is if it werent for this forum

(1)both my sullys would be horrible bumpy I'm not gonna use the word because if I werent on here I wouldnt know what it was or that they are supposed to be smooth.
(2) Charlie would be dead
(3) I would be underfeeding them
(4)they would have a horrible diet because I had NO IDEA what to feed them.
(5) they would of been kept in a tiny cage
(6)they would of developed that mvb
(7) they wouldnt have had uvb
(8) never would of been soaked or given water often
(9) would of been kept in the same cage
(10) never would have gotten heat sources

So theirs 10 reasons why this place has made me an awesome tort owner and still learning. Both my sulcatas would of been in horrible shape probably died or developed problems.

Like most people I wanted something with out doing research and then got the animal and THEN decided to try n learn.
Biggest mistake ever. Esp if I would of listened to ALL the wrong information from MANY out side sources that SWORE they knew what they were talking about. I took all their info in and then went online did my own research found this forum and it contradicted everything everyone told me. Once I read and learned I realized how miss informed ALOT of people are. So when it comes to taking cerian advise from people on this forum I sit with wide open eyes and read everything! Because so far I have not been steered in the wrong direction.

---

And yes that is a hair in Zeus's moth in the last picture that I got out after the pic.

This one is a good example of what I was talking about. It was chilly so zeus was wearing a cookie monster coat lol.

ANYWAY here's zeus n blue my dog (never alone together,always supervised) I dont trust the sully my dogs scared of him. Because of 1 to many rams in the legs or while sleeping and biteing.

I took this picture RIGHt when zeus charged to ram the dog which he's done before and still does often. He also bites her toes. Allthough its funny to watch those are the signs people need to pick up on that some dont. I could go on all day about the things my animals do but theirs a little bit of information.

Sometimes the dogs arnt always the ones picking on the torts. IN MY CASE zeus is a bully and hes only 2

 

[motero]

Mick do you keep any adult male Sulcatas, alone or in your group? In your picture are those males?

 

[Tom]

Tom I think we got off on the wrong foot. I understand where your coming from and are trying to steer new keepers in the right direction.

I already said I don't want to see pic's of injured tortoises, words from people it has happened to will do fine so I hope "In my travels I will try to get pics of these horrible events and post them here. I prefer not to post such gruesomeness on a family oriented forum, but as usual, some people aren't willing to take another persons word for it." was not aimed at me.

I really think you are over dramatizing the risk of keeping Sulcatas and leopards together. You say it has happened and I believe you, but you say it hasn't happened often because most people don't practice keeping them together and separate if they see any aggression. This is where I disagree, there are thousands of people in the UK and Ireland housing these two species together, I can only imagine of the number of people doing it in the US. If it was such a risk there would be a lot of deaths, not just in private collection but in zoo's and animal parks.
Keeping a horsfield with an adult sulcata is completely wrong practice. An adult Leopard tortoise is a different story, even a male, they are a large robust species. The risk of a adult leopard getting injured by a adult sulcata is extremely minimal. Or any Leopard of a comparable size to a sulcata. There is just as much risk a sulcata hurting another sulcata yet I take it your not against the housing of multiple sulcatas. There is more risk of spurthighs or horsfields doing damage to their own kind than a sulcata doing damage to a leopard.
The risk is so insignificant it is not an issue.
I stated my thoughts on the pathogen issue so won't repeat myself and annoy Crice, the risk with CB sulcatas and leopards is the same as any CB species out there.
I can understand why some thought your initial posts was patronizing to me and mine might have been also in reply. I fight fire with fire, I apologise for this because as you said this a friendly family forum for people to learn.

Ahh. This is good. Progress. By discussing this we are getting to the heart of the matter and figuring out why two experienced people have such different opinions on this matter. Thank you for sticking it out.

The main point of contention, as I see it: Based on your experience, you think I over-represent the problem. Based on my experience, I think you under-represent the problem. I think both of us are correct in what we say based on our own experiences. So now my question is: Why have we had such different experiences with the same species?

I have seen what ICU describes MANY times. One of my FEMALES, Daisy, used to behave just like that until she was "rehabbed" by my adult male that was literally 10 times her size. She is still that way with any new tortoise in her territory. She is stable with the other sulcatas that she lives with, but I have no doubt she'd kill any new tortoise of any species unless its a big bull male that is at least twice her size and very dominant. Of course I won't give her the chance, so again there won't be any evidence in my favor here.

I have a theory that I'd like to throw out there. Could be wrong or it could explain some of this. My theory is climate as it relates to health and behavior. I propose that living outdoors everyday in a warm climate with lots of UV, natural grazing and very large enclosures might encourage more natural behavior than living in small indoor enclosures with artificial lighting and UV most of the year. Let me share an example: In the past I used to rehab a lot of poorly cared for green iguanas. People would buy them as babies at a pet shop, keep them in a small aquarium, feed them lettuce, no UV, and they would get bored with them, or not want to buy a bigger cage as they grew. Most of these animals were dog tame, easy to handle and not aggressive in any way. For those reading this who don't know, this is NOT normal green iguana behavior. Yes some of them can tame down and be quite approachable, but the majority of healthy normal iguanas are fairly skittish and defensive. I would take these malnourished borderline MBD animals and I'd start feeding them well, supplementing their calcium, and most importantly, get them outside in large open cages for sunning daily. Nearly every one of these docile indoor house pets turned into a tail whipping, mouth gaping, mini Godzilla with a vendetta against humans. Some would tame down, but their obvious health and vigor from a good diet, spacious enclosure and exposure to real sunshine had an obvious impact on their behavior and temperament. I have seen the same thing, although admittedly less pronounced, in tortoises. Might this be a factor in our disagreement on the "normal" aggression levels in sulcatas?

 

[crice]

Wasn't annoying me, just figured it's easier to agree to disagree then to bash one another's comments an concerns... Idk if anyone works with aquatics, some people say you can't put a map and a RES together, or even 2 sub species of res.. Although they take same climate... Just a debatable topic

 

[Saleama]

Wasn't annoying me, just figured it's easier to agree to disagree then to bash one another's comments an concerns... Idk if anyone works with aquatics, some people say you can't put a map and a RES together, or even 2 sub species of res.. Although they take same climate... Just a debatable topic

There are many water turtles that live in the same ponds rivers lakes and streams together. I have seen countless examples of these living together just fine. I have 2 painted and 2 musk in a tank together purely for astetic reasons. they are fun to watch and live in different areas of the same tank. I have heard many many people talk about RES outright attacking map turtles. I think maybe because they are both basking turtles and they fight over the best basking spots because they are different. painted turtles will stack 2 and 3 high on top of each other to bask.

 

[Mick.Ire]

Mick do you keep any adult male Sulcatas, alone or in your group? In your picture are those males?

That picture was a few years ago. The two in it are females. We had a male which we raised until adult hood but had to give him away as he was to aggressive towards the leopards. Haha just kidding, he's on loan to a zoo, they needed a big animal to fill an empty enclosure same zoo now has 4 males 1 female all living together happy out. Great tortoise and never any hassle with him. We currently have a juvenile male in the herd now. Amazing little guy and full of beans. Estimate about 5-6 years old and quite pyramided. Only got him two years ago as a rescue.

Tom, you make some interesting points. Thing is, here in Ireland and many friends and fellow keepers in the UK, we all let our sulcatas and leopards outdoors once it's above 14degrees Celcius. Sometimes lower for the sulcatas, they are extremely intelligent and we leave the shed door open, they will thermoregulate between the two, into the shed for some lamp time if needed and back out to graze. While we cannot have them outside 12 months or even 8 months I estimate we get them out for 5 months which isn't bad at all.
Our area for them in the shed needs an extension which we are working on, it's about 12ftx6ft, maybe slightly larger but soon they will have more. We have multiple pig lamps and mercury vapours on the go in winter and tube heaters if needed. I know you can't beat natural UV but we get our fair share in the summer, remember the sun only has to 30o in the sky for the UV rays to penetrate the atmosphere, so between this, artificial, and their nutrazu (contains D3) they aren't lacking in our opinion. Our garden isn't huge either but does the job for now, we have ample supply of food for them.

My point is every tortoise can be aggressive, I don't believe Sulcatas to be any more aggressive than any say Testudo species.

Here's one of them heading into the shed for a warm up. Again these are old pic's and videos, must take more this summer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9LeEnKbTYI

---

on that small male sully we got a couple of years ago, I'll start a new thread on him, you can see how he's smoothing out great now he's on the right diet. He's small enough to develop into a nice relatively smooth male which is great.

 

[andyf]

Hi im New to this forum and i would like to talk to Mick, can you private message on here?

 

[kball]

I have a 8-9 inch sulcata in with a 3-4 inch leopard tortoise and they do fine. I would take them both to the bet and have them checked out so that you could be sure that they couldn't pass and problem to one another.

 

[Tom]

I have a 8-9 inch sulcata in with a 3-4 inch leopard tortoise and they do fine. I would take them both to the bet and have them checked out so that you could be sure that they couldn't pass and problem to one another.

Your definition of "fine" is different than mine. Given everything that I know, I'll bet your little leopard tortoise leans more toward MY definition. You are making a mistake there whether you realize it yet or not.

As far as vet checks, you have at least a couple of problems if that is your safety net. First of all, most vets know little or nothing about tortoises. But that is a whole 'nother subject. Let us assume you have found a fantastic tortoise vet that knows all about them and has been keeping his own for years. Many tortoise diseases are not apparent with just a typical vet exam. Many diseases are difficult or impossible to diagnose with any lab test short of necropsy. Taking your tortoise to the vet for a routine check-up and then assuming all is good because the vet saw no obvious outward signs is an error with potentially disastrous consequences. Individual tortoises, as well as entire collections have been lost because of the practice you are currently engaging in.

I wish it were as simple as a quick check by a vet, but even if that was somehow able to magically insure that both animals are currently disease and pathogen free, it still ignores the behavioral aspects of pair dynamics and species with vastly different personalities that should not have to coexist in that way.

 

[kball]

I have a vet that is a tortoise expert and has been taking care if them for more than 45 yrs. I watch then very carful to make sure there not being bullies. Plus there enclosure is a room that is 12 by 10 feet. So there is plenty of room for them to stay out of each other's way. Even though there in a big room they sleep together in a corner on one out of five heating pads.

 

[kball]

I have questioned myself several times but I made sure to ask on many websites and tortoise professionals.

 

[Tom]

There are many reasons why a tortoise chooses to sleep where it does. It does not mean they like each other and it does not mean things are okay because they sleep next to each other.

Do you know anyone who keeps chameleons? Possibly your vet? Ask him to explain visual stress in chameleons to you. Just seeing another chameleon across the room is enough to stress them out. Chameleons are much more expressive with their body language and color changes, and so these signs are relatively easy to see in them. Our tortoises with their rigid shells and armored heads do not show their displeasure in a way that is easy for humans to recognize.

I can find people on websites and tortoise professionals to agree with just about any claim I want. That doesn't mean the matter is settled. What percentage of tortoise "professionals", website users and vets will still you to keep a hatchling sulcata or leopard on rabbit pellets, feed it lettuce, and only soak it once a week? Sadly, its a large percentage, but that doesn't mean its a good practice.

Bottom line is this: I am trying to warn you of problems that I have personally experienced. In the past I had to learn some of these things the hard way. There was no internet, and the books were all wrong. My animals suffered the consequences of my inexperience and ignorance until I finally figured some things out. YOU have the benefit of this forum and many people who have already been down the road you are now on. It will be a shame for your tortoises if you choose to disregard what others have learned and are sharing with you.

 

[kball]

What happened to your pets?

 

[kball]

Just wondering because well I have done a lot of research but I'm 12 yrs old so I'm doing the best I can with what I was given.

 

[Tom]

Oh good lord... I try to be polite to everyone, but now I'm really glad I was polite with you. You should really let people know your age up front. We have no way to know we are talking to a kid, and frankly, its a different conversation with a kid, vs. an adult.

What happened to your pets?

I've been keeping all sorts of animals for several decades now. I have had all sorts of deaths, escapes, injuries, diseases, you name it. My jobs, starting in 1986, have me working with animal owners, animal importers and sellers, vets, etc... Because of this I have received the benefit of many other peoples experiences and mistakes, as well as my own.

 

[kball]

I try not to tell people my age because there's a lot of freaks out there but u no I'm trying my best to give my torts the best life they can possibly have and there asleep right now I want them to be over 100 lbs so that I can't lift them so I no that they have bin well fed and ate there fill.

 

[kball]

And had a great life