CDTs For Sale?

[GBtortoises]

I'm on the fence on this subject. I am 110% in favor of all species of "pet" animals being captive bred as much as possible. Whether or not making them legal to sell will cause a decline in wild populations is questionable. There is no way of knowing for certain until the practice has already taken place. You can't say that it will or won't with absolute certainty. One thing that it will do is make more available for those that want them thereby possibly not effecting wild populations as negatively through captive breeding. But again, that is not a certainty either. At this point the unknowing and uneducated are most likely taking them out of the wild anyway to take home as vacation momentos. This has always been and always will be. Although I have not personally seen it, I am guessing that there is and has been a black market for them that demands high prices. There is with most such rare or endangered animals. I've never been offered a Desert tortoise but I have in the past been offered Gopher tortoises so the market most likely exists for Desert tortoises too. Bringing their trade out into the public could hurt the black market trade enough that it would stop. The only possible way to attempt to ensure that wild tortoises stay wild is to track the ownership of captive animals. At this point all adults currently in captivity would have to be registered, any change of ownership reported and the animals registered under the new owner. Breeders would have to provide proof of eggs produced and any babies born would have to be registered and ownership transfers reported and re-registered and so and so on.
One of my big concerns with this would be the introduction of captive born and raised or long term captive wild animals being re-introduced to the wild. This is something that absolutely should not be done. Unless your intention is to possibly kill off all the original wild populations in order to establish new "man made" wild populations. Often times it's thought that captive animals should be released back into the wild where they "belong". More often than not this is a poor idea which can potentially lead to exposure of foreign bacteria and parasites to wild populations. While it might seem like the right thing to do for the individual animal, it really isn't necessarily the best thing to do for the wild population.

 

[Tom]

Angela, We have, and have had for a while, a philosophical disagreement on how we see the world as far as captive animals. I am okay with that too. I also like and respect you and your opinions too. I have no problem with CDTs and other animals being owned and well kept in society. I don't think its a tragedy or some horrible thing. In the majority of cases, I think these animals have won the life lottery. Life in the wild is cruel, harsh and totally unforgiving. Life in captivity is cushy and every need is tended to and met. If I was a CDT and had the choice of being left alone in Mojave, or living in YOUR backyard and getting fed, watered and having a safe place to overwinter, I would choose to be YOUR tortoise every time.

Ahh.. No more needs to be said. We each know where the other is coming from. Thanks for eloquently and respectfully sharing your views. They are always welcome, even if we don't always agree.

 

[Jacqui]

CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?

I agree that NONE should be removed from the wild any more given their rare and protected wild status, but I cannot understand what is the harm in reproducing an adult tortoise that is already captive and cannot ever be released...... So why not allow people to breed the heck out of them to satisfy the demand for captives? They are a really great species and I wish everyone across the country could enjoy them, the way we all get to enjoy what ever species we choose to work with.

I realize the laws here will likely never change, but I wish they would. My point of view is that there is no harm in captive breeding an awesome species and selling off the babies to pay for your hobby or make a profit. I see no reason why someone in New Mexico, or Washington, or New York should not be able to buy a captive bred baby CDT, and love it and give it a good home, the same way we do it with any other species.

What say you, tortoise people?

Tom, this is something I have been saying and asking for years.

 

[acrantophis]

Tom, I wont let us become engaged in an argument here purely based on opinion....while I do host four CDTs here I wish there was no need for these beauties to be doomed to captivity....I wish there was no reason. Absolutely I am in love with each of the CDTs here...but I catch myself in a moment of sadness from time to time when I think about where they should be and never again allowed to be there....that is a sad sad trade off. In a heart beat I would rather them not be here but rather where they should be....that Tom would be fantastic and put a bigger smile on my face even more than the joy I get from hosting them....

Tom, I also host two dogs (the law says I own them, but that can not be the case as one living creature can not own another).....at one time in my life I supported the pure bred market place....until I had a dose of reality and learned of unheard of number of dogs being killed because people have overly and commonly devalued the life of a dog....throw away, we can get em cheap mentality....our tendency as a species is to lay claim to what we want regardless to what the victim would vote....once we claim something as our right then we begin to devalue it because we can simply get or make more...so no big deal...value lost. We need to remember to value...to let things alone sometimes....so allow value and importance to not be raped and devalued.

I also adopted two redfoot torts from a member here because she had no interest in them....I of course absolutely would and did take their pyramided beautiful little butts in and another member here had two gorgeous babies he felt would be good with me and of course of course of course I will offer love and care and a home for them through their captive lives.....case closed.

Tom, I am not going to use words like hypocrisy and such towards you....as I simply responded to your thread with emotion, passion and love for the well being of an endangered species...emotions, passion and love are not and should not be so quickly devalued simply to make a point.

Tom, here we are toe to toe on a subject that we disagree on....I am alright with us disagreeing and I still like you just the same....

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Oh yeah....I am sad that folks don't have a greater opportunity to see them in their Wildlands....here are a couple pics my son and I took when we went for a two hour walk in the Mojave....the tort but is a youngster....the burrows were occupied but too darn dark for the tort to show up but the perfectness of the burrow entrance was too awesome to not photograph....and the last pic was us standing up looking over their beautiful domain......enjoy.

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Wow great pictures! I kind of agree with you and i kind of Agee with Tom. I was in the reptile import business in the 80's and 90's. Going to the airport to pick up boxes of fish and reptiles from all over the world was exciting at first. I would love opening boxes to see what had come in. But often the boxes would contain just corpses. To see a box of dead animals can really impact an animal lover. For a long time I would see animals as price tags. The salt water fish industry is even worse. So many fish die in shipping and then again at the wholesaler and again at the pet store.
While scuba diving I would be like "that one is 129.99, that one is 49.99 etc..." I now feel that no animals should be taken from the wild. It isn't sustainable. If an animal occurs in the wild in high numbers it is necessary for that species survival. Maybe it's just to feed other animals, but definitely not for pet harvesting.
However the captive breeding of animals for the pet industry, to me, is ok. The wild is a dangerous place. And many animals thrive in captivity. Some don't though, and some should never be kept.

 

[Tom]

Tom, this is something I have been saying and asking for years.

Jacqui, If I made the rules, your hatchling CDT group would be getting shipped tomorrow! You know I hate all these laws and big government. Maybe someday in our lifetimes things will change for the better...

No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...

 

[harris]

I just want to add that this is one of the best debatable threads I've read in this section in a long, long time. Thanks to Angela and Tom, two people I respect very much here. The opposite view points couldn't of been constructed any better.

 

[Jacqui]

So far, if I am reading most folks' posts correctly, those of you against the selling of captive bred DTs, it is the belief that by allowing them to start having a monetary value, folks will start doing more taking from the wild. Correct? So what if the law were changed so they could still NOT be sold, but could be given? Thus they would have no monetary value. Then also, at the same time rewrite the law so it allows folks who want to breed them and help the eggs to develop into hatchlings to do so. Then also allow folks who live outside of the current "legal" area to be given these CB hatchling DTs. For example, Tom has some babies to give away, in this scenario he could legally send me some and Kristina some. Would you agree to that? If not, why not?

---

No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...

Well blue IS my favorite color.

 

[Tom]

Jacqui, I think that is a splendid idea and makes everyone but the government types happy. Well the people who wanted to profit might not be happy too, but I'm okay with that.

 

[dmmj]

Sorry jacqui, I passed the law in CA stating" jacqui can't ever have CDT's" my bad it was before I joined the forum, and I just picked a name at random.

 

[Jacqui]

Sorry jacqui, I passed the law in CA stating" jacqui can't ever have CDT's" my bad it was before I joined the forum, and I just picked a name at random.

David, thing is before you passed the "None for Jacqui" law, I did have a very elderly CDT.

 

[CGKeith]

Jacqui, you don't have to go to CA, we have DT's in Arizona.

Here, it is legal to give them away. In fact you must do so within 2 yrs of them hatching. But you can only have one per person.

As far as being able to take them to different States, you do have individual State laws to deal with, but also Federal laws that would have to be changed. I really doubt anyone will live long enough to see all of them getting together to work that out.

 

[Jacqui]

But you can only have one per person.

I personally do not understand this part of the law there. Why? Especially in light of how many the Game and Parks (is that what you call your folks?) has sitting around needing homes and are housed in crowded conditions.

 

[CGKeith]

But you can only have one per person.

I personally do not understand this part of the law there. Why? Especially in light of how many the Game and Parks (is that what you call your folks?) has sitting around needing homes and are housed in crowded conditions.

I believe that is supposed to keep people from breeding them. The adoption centers take it a step further and say one per household if you get one from them. But as with most laws, they try and create a system to help and end up creating additional problems in the process.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Another member posted about someone trying to get "rehoming fees" for a CDT on another thread. This is something I have considered a lot over the years, and I'd love to hear how other keepers feel about it.

CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?

I agree that NONE should be removed from the wild any more given their rare and protected wild status, but I cannot understand what is the harm in reproducing an adult tortoise that is already captive and cannot ever be released. I abhor what went on for so many decades here with ignorant people bringing home souvenirs from their trip across the CA desert, but that damage is already done, and it's already stopped. So why not allow people to breed the heck out of them to satisfy the demand for captives? They are a really great species and I wish everyone across the country could enjoy them, the way we all get to enjoy what ever species we choose to work with.

I realize the laws here will likely never change, but I wish they would. My point of view is that there is no harm in captive breeding an awesome species and selling off the babies to pay for your hobby or make a profit. I see no reason why someone in New Mexico, or Washington, or New York should not be able to buy a captive bred baby CDT, and love it and give it a good home, the same way we do it with any other species.

What say you, tortoise people?

You make a very compelling case, Tom.

 

[Weldd]

I think this is the only way. If you place ANY monetary value on an animal, there will be people who will find a reason to exploit that.

I am from Long Island, NY originally. There was a spot on the eastern end of the island that was absolutely LOADED with spotted turtles. It was an interesting habitat because it had tidal drainage and the water was brackish. If you walked the spot on a nice spring day you could literally see hundreds of spotteds.

Well, it was discovered by a person active in the reptile trade and was collected until empty. I returned there last year for the first time in 15 or 20 years and there was not a single turtle there. The habitat had not changed a bit but there was no turtles.

Mind you, this was in the early-mid 90's when spotted turtles were about $10 wholesale.

Any financial incentive, any at all, will be enough for people to crawl around the wilderness on their belly for the chance to "earn" a dollar.

P.S. The person responsible for what I described above is still very active in the reptile trade. He posts animals for sale on KS regularly and will almost certainly have a table in Daytona in a few weeks.

So far, if I am reading most folks' posts correctly, those of you against the selling of captive bred DTs, it is the belief that by allowing them to start having a monetary value, folks will start doing more taking from the wild. Correct? So what if the law were changed so they could still NOT be sold, but could be given? Thus they would have no monetary value. Then also, at the same time rewrite the law so it allows folks who want to breed them and help the eggs to develop into hatchlings to do so. Then also allow folks who live outside of the current "legal" area to be given these CB hatchling DTs. For example, Tom has some babies to give away, in this scenario he could legally send me some and Kristina some. Would you agree to that? If not, why not?

---

No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...

Well blue IS my favorite color.

---

 

[kanalomele]

I think weldd makes a good point. There is ALWAYS someone who will put personal and financial gain over the welfare of the animals. I don't like this about our species but it is undeniably and invariably true. I am still very pro a breeding program, and the more the better. Yes even to responsible homes outside of their territory

 

[Tom]

I think this is the only way. If you place ANY monetary value on an animal, there will be people who will find a reason to exploit that.

I am from Long Island, NY originally. There was a spot on the eastern end of the island that was absolutely LOADED with spotted turtles. It was an interesting habitat because it had tidal drainage and the water was brackish. If you walked the spot on a nice spring day you could literally see hundreds of spotteds.

Well, it was discovered by a person active in the reptile trade and was collected until empty. I returned there last year for the first time in 15 or 20 years and there was not a single turtle there. The habitat had not changed a bit but there was no turtles.

Mind you, this was in the early-mid 90's when spotted turtles were about $10 wholesale.

Any financial incentive, any at all, will be enough for people to crawl around the wilderness on their belly for the chance to "earn" a dollar.

P.S. The person responsible for what I described above is still very active in the reptile trade. He posts animals for sale on KS regularly and will almost certainly have a table in Daytona in a few weeks.

Was the spotted turtle completely and totally illegal to remove or even disturb in the wild in those days? Was it considered and endangered, highly threatened species then?

What you describe is a tragedy in my opinion, and I think that is pretty similar to what was happening with the CDT for a long time over here, but now even touching a CDT carries serious penalties and huge fines. I'm pretty sure if someone was caught collecting them from the wild in any numbers they would do prison time. I am NOT in favor of making legal to collect any more from the wild, but I still see no reason to not breed captive ones and let people around the country enjoy this wonderful species. I've seen a few adults in the wild over the years, but I don't know of anyone who has found babies. It would be difficult for someone to "cheat" the system if babies were allowed to be sold or at least given away.

 

[EricIvins]

Conservation through commercialization has proven to work with a myriad of species the world over.......I would expect Desert Tortoises to be no different.....

 

[Kristina]

send me some and Kristina some.

I love you.

No no... don't hold your breath. You are already turning blue...

Well blue IS my favorite color.

I'm partial to green myself... goes well with envy...

I agree with that scenario as well. What is the true logical reason that Jacqui and I can't own a group of CDT's? An "assurance" colony if you will. Heck, we both have assurance colonies of Manouria emys emys, that came from the TSA. Other than being non-native to the US, what is the darn difference?

 

[dmmj]

The california desert tortoise, does not know it is a california desert tortoise, if one was to reach the border where california and nevada meet, I highly doubt he will stop and turn around.