CDTs For Sale?

[Tom]

Another member posted about someone trying to get "rehoming fees" for a CDT on another thread. This is something I have considered a lot over the years, and I'd love to hear how other keepers feel about it.

CA law says it is illegal to buy, sell, cross state lines, breed, remove from the wild, any CDT, or artificially incubate (or "help") eggs laid in captivity by any CDT. Why? Why are CDTs so different than any other tortoise species? We can snatch tortoises from the wild all over the globe, breed and sell as many as we want and that's fine, but we can't breed the captive native torts that we already have? Why not?

I agree that NONE should be removed from the wild any more given their rare and protected wild status, but I cannot understand what is the harm in reproducing an adult tortoise that is already captive and cannot ever be released. I abhor what went on for so many decades here with ignorant people bringing home souvenirs from their trip across the CA desert, but that damage is already done, and it's already stopped. So why not allow people to breed the heck out of them to satisfy the demand for captives? They are a really great species and I wish everyone across the country could enjoy them, the way we all get to enjoy what ever species we choose to work with.

I realize the laws here will likely never change, but I wish they would. My point of view is that there is no harm in captive breeding an awesome species and selling off the babies to pay for your hobby or make a profit. I see no reason why someone in New Mexico, or Washington, or New York should not be able to buy a captive bred baby CDT, and love it and give it a good home, the same way we do it with any other species.

What say you, tortoise people?

 

[CourtneyAndCarl]

It probably has something to do with preserving the wild specimens. If everyone could get their hands on one, how can they be sure that it wasn't wild caught? If people are allowed to sell them for cash, people will probably start plucking them out of the wild to sell. Maybe some crazy disease will form in a mass produced captive population, and infect the wild one.

These aren't my thoughts, just maybe some of the reasons that the laws are in place.

 

[Neal]

Ha, I was honestly considering a similar thread.

Here, the AZ game and fish department is all but begging people to rehome Sonoran Desert Tortoises. I've been to the "sanctuary" where they hold several hundred of these tortoises...and it's sad to think that all these tortoises will likely live out there whole lives in those over crowded conditions. Talk about personality and hardiness, the desert tortoises I have seen are really magnificent.

I'll just say, I agree with you fully. I think that there are enough to "go around" that there really would not be any incentive to collect wild specimens.

 

[MikeCow1]

I agree. Why not captive breed a rare and vanishing species. And why not be able to sell or trade captive bred ones. I know the argument is that the young ones will outlive the owner, but still.

 

[SamB]

I would love the opportunity to have a few more DT's. No doubt about that. Breeding them and then selling them would certainly make that easy. But that is a cheap fix isn't it? Would I be as attached to a purchased DT versus the long and hard road we had to travel to adopt our DT's and the strong loving bond that is created for your DT?

I see alot of Pro's, and I see alot of Con's -- so I'm on the fence on this one

 

[mctlong]

I say absolutely NO to the buying and selling because, if buying/selling is legalized, no matter how many torts are available, there will be oppurtunistc idiots out there who will catch the wild torts and try to sell them to ususpecting buyers. Catching wild animals is free, no overhead. All profit. So my vote is no.

What I don't get it the non-breeding of DTs. I'd love to see a good breeding and reintroduction program. We should be able to test for RI before release, as that seems to be the main concern about rleasing torts into the wild.

 

[CGKeith]

Arizona law is the same for all native species (to AZ). You cannot buy, sell or trade any of them. But if someone takes (illegaly) an animal from the State of AZ to another State they then can and do sell them. Examples are desert box turtles, Arizona Mtn kingsnakes, rattlesnakes, gila monsters, etc...
But, I can buy many animals that are not native (to AZ) and breed and sell as many of them as I want. Example, eastern box turtles, corn snakes, etc... (plus all the imported species)

The same is true in many States where the eastern box turtle is a native, they can't touch them there but they can buy plenty of other things that are not native to that State, like desert box turtle, and Arizona Mtn. kingsnakes from Arizona.

So, most of us end up enjoying and keeping animals from other States instead of what is native to our own State.

Totally makes sense.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

If it were legal to sell them, they would be removed from the wild even more than they already are. I can see selling hatchlings, but then again, how is one to determine whether the hatchlings were captive bred or taken from the wild. I have seen plenty of tortoises that are being sold as captive bred when clearly they have been taken from the wild.

 

[wellington]

I agree. Voted yes

 

[badkitty]

I say why not if you can get them a great home. We got our 2 sonoran desert tortoises from someone who had a bunch of captive bred that kept breeding, I was given the torts and didn't pay a fee which is legal in AZ.
If you go to the Arizona fish & game website you can adopt a DT but the requirements are ridiculous and most people can't meet all of them which is a shame because they are so over crowded right now that a lot could be adopted out to the right people but AZ fish & game won't budge on meeting ALL the requirements. I would definitely love to get more they have great personalities!

 

[Yvonne G]

The reason they are illegal to be "sold" is so that people won't be tempted to go into the desert and take them from the wild. You could go harvest some wild tortoises, take them home and place an ad to sell them. How is the DFG going to prove that you didn't raise them from an egg.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I agree. Voted yes

Me also!

 

[ascott]

Wow, I am totally shocked Tom that you would produce this thread????? I thought you expressed before that these are a species close to your heart....

Why would we want to step back at the further expense of this species? It has taken many many years and the lives of many of these regal creatures for there to be any law put in place to offer any type of punishment for someone found ripping them from their small remaining wildland.....

Tom, I know that even as little as thirty years ago a piece of crap person could go into the desert and bring back as many as you can collect and they would pull the grand price of 10.00 dollars a piece, why? because it was free to rip them from their wildland and there was no punishment available to enforce against a repeat offender....mind you, people do and will continue to steal them from the wild...but damn it some of them get caught and some of them have to answer for it....

I have on my property a beautiful male CDT that was one of many that one person had ripped from his wildland...the other one that was with him was popped under the tire of the pizza man because the idiot left their front apartment door open and they both walked out into the road....the male was found after the female was killed...now, that tort would never have been run over by the pizza man had they been left in their wildland....this same person had prior suspicion for removing them from the wild and this beautiful tort at my house was the only one that made it away from that person, all of the others were found to have died/been killed...officials turned the male over to me after they went in and confiscated the tort.......

Now, there is a great desire to house many of these torts and they are indeed an awesome tort....no question about it. However, in my opinion, if the few guidelines in the law changed and were taken away....wow, the rest of the population in the wild would be gone and the only trace of a CDT would be the ones reduced to backyard pets....

Some will say, whats the matter with being a backyard pet? Nothing, if you were not designed to cover acres of land every day....graze at free will....mate as the moment arose...and so on and so on and so on....

I also do not support ripping any tortoise nor turtle from the wild, not any species, it is deplorable----in my opinion....it is just another way man displays how superior we "think" we are and that the law of nature "should" not apply to us as well.....

Okay, so I will shut up now before I rant on.....Tom, I have great respect for what you offer to the tortoise community and I see that you have a great curiosity for the Sulcata....could you imagine the wild without that species?? without that species having an opportunity to survive on their own in their own land????

The reason there is such a huge market for Sulcata or Russians is exactly due to this way of thinking....there should be a greater population in the wild and efforts should be focused in the preservation and conservation and promoting that vs allowing humans to further rape the world of her precious treasures and the areas raped by humans will likely never recover from our ignorance....

So, I would vote, no and thank you for asking.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

I voted no. Unless there was some sort of sanctuary set up here that had some security protecting them would be the only way they would ever be able to keep any numbers in the wild. People go out and pick up wild desert torts and take them home all the time and you cant even sell them. I cant imagine how fast they would be picked clean from the wild if they were legal to sell.

 

[Nixxy]

The reason they are illegal to be "sold" is so that people won't be tempted to go into the desert and take them from the wild. You could go harvest some wild tortoises, take them home and place an ad to sell them. How is the DFG going to prove that you didn't raise them from an egg.

That's my only problem with it.

I think it should be legal, but honestly..I don't trust it being legal, knowing how folks are.

 

[kanalomele]

I was literally Today considering this for myself... What I would love to see is captive bred torts being responsibly bred for the release of hatchlings into the wild. A responsible controlled program to bolster the wild population could be so important to these vanishing torts. So I have to vote no to their selling, but I would also love to see the captive population being placed into good homes through a better adoption program. Then a portion of that population being placed into homes that will use them for wild release hatchlings.

 

[Arizona Sulcata]

I am by ZERO means an expert on this topic. The argument that people will just go in the desert and take them to sell if it were legal holds no relevance in my opinion. I do a lot a lot of outdoor activities hiking, hunting, and spend most of my time outdoors going to places that haven't seen a person in decades. Not once have I seen a wild DT. With that being said I think its easier said than done saying people will just go take all the wild ones and sell them... Good luck finding them is what I say to that.

 

[Tom]

My experience mirrors Austin's. My aunt and uncle live in CDT territory and they rarely see one. When they do everyone knows to leave it alone and that its a protected species. The idea that people would suddenly drop everything and run into the desert to illegally collect every wild tortoise they could find so they could get rich is just ridiculous to me. There are tons of animals out there that could be illegally collected and sold, but they aren't. Collard lizards, chuckwallas, desert iguanas, king and gopher snakes, all the rattlesnakes. Rattlesnakes can be collected here in CA any time of the year with no permits or paperwork of any kind. And they can be sold for a pretty good profit. Yet, their wild populations are doing just fine.

And even if that were the case, the point is to captive breed them to REMOVE any pressure for collecting from the wild. If you could legally buy a captive bred baby that is well adapted and has known nothing but captivity, why would you go out and risk huge fines, jail time, and a tremendous amount of your time, effort and gas money to find and illegal wild one, that would take a long time to adjust to captivity, if it ever did, and is likely full of all sorts of wild parasites. Its the same argument against buying WC of any other species.

If these laws were abolished tomorrow, I would start putting together some captive animals and get busy breeding this endangered species. The thought of going out and collecting wild ones would never even occur to me. That is an uphill and very risky battle and there is NO sensible reason to undertake it, when there are already so many other viable options already in captivity.

Angela, your arguments are the same "sky will be falling", emotion based, hypocritical nonsense that we hear from all the animal rights groups that want to ban pet ownership. To hear it coming from someone who already has a bunch of tortoises that are very much loved and well cared for is astounding to me. Why do you not want everyone to enjoy the benefits of pet CDTs, and other tortoise species, that you so clearly enjoy. And I don't have to imagine the wild without sulcatas. They are extinct in at least two countries within their range and most probably more. They are nearly extinct in most of their range. How does this make an argument to NOT captive breed them or allow them to be sold. Isn't removing pressure for collection from the wild for the pet trade exactly they reason they SHOULD be bred? I don't see the CDT as any different. If I can buy a cheap, healthy, captive bred baby CDT legally from a reputable breeder, why on earth would I take the risk of snatching a wild one. It would cost more in gas just to drive out to where their territory is for most people, than it would to just buy one. Plus if someone were to drive out to the theoretical range of the CDT, there is no guarantee that you will even find one. The idea of wasting all that time and money and coming up empty handed is going to dissuade most people who would be willing to risk it, and the illegality of it would be enough to stop most of the rest.

 

[ascott]

Tom, I wont let us become engaged in an argument here purely based on opinion....while I do host four CDTs here I wish there was no need for these beauties to be doomed to captivity....I wish there was no reason. Absolutely I am in love with each of the CDTs here...but I catch myself in a moment of sadness from time to time when I think about where they should be and never again allowed to be there....that is a sad sad trade off. In a heart beat I would rather them not be here but rather where they should be....that Tom would be fantastic and put a bigger smile on my face even more than the joy I get from hosting them....

Tom, I also host two dogs (the law says I own them, but that can not be the case as one living creature can not own another).....at one time in my life I supported the pure bred market place....until I had a dose of reality and learned of unheard of number of dogs being killed because people have overly and commonly devalued the life of a dog....throw away, we can get em cheap mentality....our tendency as a species is to lay claim to what we want regardless to what the victim would vote....once we claim something as our right then we begin to devalue it because we can simply get or make more...so no big deal...value lost. We need to remember to value...to let things alone sometimes....so allow value and importance to not be raped and devalued.

I also adopted two redfoot torts from a member here because she had no interest in them....I of course absolutely would and did take their pyramided beautiful little butts in and another member here had two gorgeous babies he felt would be good with me and of course of course of course I will offer love and care and a home for them through their captive lives.....case closed.

Tom, I am not going to use words like hypocrisy and such towards you....as I simply responded to your thread with emotion, passion and love for the well being of an endangered species...emotions, passion and love are not and should not be so quickly devalued simply to make a point.

Tom, here we are toe to toe on a subject that we disagree on....I am alright with us disagreeing and I still like you just the same....

---

Oh yeah....I am sad that folks don't have a greater opportunity to see them in their Wildlands....here are a couple pics my son and I took when we went for a two hour walk in the Mojave....the tort but is a youngster....the burrows were occupied but too darn dark for the tort to show up but the perfectness of the burrow entrance was too awesome to not photograph....and the last pic was us standing up looking over their beautiful domain......enjoy.

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

I think the fact that you can never find one in the wild is a huge reason not to make these legal to sell. There are so few in the wild that it wouldnt take much collecting for this species to go extinct in the wild. The biggest reason people dont take them is because they have no cash value not because its illegal to. There is almost no way to catch people red handed from taking them from the wild because Game and Fish arent everywhere (at least here in AZ there not). Not everyone like you and I truly care for this species and its well being. Most people would just see dollar signs and scoop up a desert tortoise whenever they see one. I think the best thing to do would be to legalize breeding and give the hatchlings to Game and Fish for reintroduction to the wild and treat it as a donation and deduct it from your taxes. I think thats a win win for everyone.