Coco peat

[Raquel1978]

Just a quick question, I'm almost 100 percent happy with my little ones enclosure after making all the changes with lighting and closed chamber.

I was using the wrong substrate so I changed to fine grade orchid bark but I think she was to little for it she's only 38g and the pieces were a little to chunky for her so I swapped to Coco coir and she seemed to like that a little better for burrowing.
No matter how much I wet and spray it tho it's always extremely dry and dusty. I've looked online and found coco peat it looks more earthy than the coir I just want to check it would be safe for me to use.
She's doing great in herself I just know through reading stuff on here that dry and dusty substrate isn't good for her. She's almost 6 months old and a Herman's if that helps.

 

[wellington]

The coconut coir just needs to have more water added to get damp. Pour warm water into the corners to dampen the bottom layer and stir it around some. This gives the humidity needed but lessons the chance of shell rot
I don't believe Coco peat is recommended due to the garbage that could be in it. Most I see has perlite in it or likely other growing additives for use as potting soil.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Personally, I like using orchid moss MUCH better. Doesn't get dusty when dry, doesn't get all over everything, and retains moisture longer than coco peat or coir.

 

[Tom]

Just a quick question, I'm almost 100 percent happy with my little ones enclosure after making all the changes with lighting and closed chamber.

I was using the wrong substrate so I changed to fine grade orchid bark but I think she was to little for it she's only 38g and the pieces were a little to chunky for her so I swapped to Coco coir and she seemed to like that a little better for burrowing.
No matter how much I wet and spray it tho it's always extremely dry and dusty. I've looked online and found coco peat it looks more earthy than the coir I just want to check it would be safe for me to use.
She's doing great in herself I just know through reading stuff on here that dry and dusty substrate isn't good for her. She's almost 6 months old and a Herman's if that helps.

Coco peat and coco coir are the same thing. Just different trade names for the same product. Coco fiber and coco chips are different than the coir.

If it is too dry, you are not adding enough water. As Wellington explained, you have to dump water in. How much water and how often varies with each enclosure, and it varies seasonally too. Get the substrate damp and hand pack it. Spraying the surface does almost nothing, as you've seen. If you have dumped water in and it is still too dry, you did not dump in enough.

This problem you are having also indicates that you have way too much ventilation for a growing baby. You will end up with pyramiding if you don't make some changes. Babies need a viv. There is not way to hold in heat and humidity with an open topped enclosure or tortoise table. Your tortoise's carapace is drying out the same os your substrate.

 

[wellington]

Personally, I like using orchid moss MUCH better. Doesn't get dusty when dry, doesn't get all over everything, and retains moisture longer than coco peat or coir.

Isn't that the same as sphagnum moss that causes problems if eaten and can entangle limbs?

 

[Raquel1978]

Coco peat and coco coir are the same thing. Just different trade names for the same product. Coco fiber and coco chips are different than the coir.

If it is too dry, you are not adding enough water. As Wellington explained, you have to dump water in. How much water and how often varies with each enclosure, and it varies seasonally too. Get the substrate damp and hand pack it. Spraying the surface does almost nothing, as you've seen. If you have dumped water in and it is still too dry, you did not dump in enough.

This problem you are having also indicates that you have way too much ventilation for a growing baby. You will end up with pyramiding if you don't make some changes. Babies need a viv. There is not way to hold in heat and humidity with an open topped enclosure or tortoise table. Your tortoise's carapace is drying out the same os your substrate.

I did have a open top/mesh top but I covered it with a green house about 4 weeks ago so hopefully once I give it a good soaking and not the misting with a bottle like I've being doing it should be less drier... Thanks all..

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Isn't that the same as sphagnum moss that causes problems if eaten and can entangle limbs?

Not at all. Tom actually recommended years ago. Been using it ever since.

 

[Tom]

Not at all. Tom actually recommended years ago. Been using it ever since.

I think orchid moss is long fibered sphagnum moss. It is likely that I recommended long fibered sphagnum moss many years ago for humid hides, like around 2010, because that is what I was taught and what many "credible" sources recommended, but then every time I tried to use it, the tortoises would eat it. I had a couple of them get constipated from it, but luckily, I got rid of the moss before full-on impaction set in. Those tortoises were able to pass the moss with some help from me and some effort, but they survived and were fine.

I apologize for any confusion, but this is one of those things like mercury vapor bulbs, where it seemed great initially, but time and experience taught me that it was not the way to go. I do not recommend moss or sphagnum moss or peat moss or any thing along those lines for any tortoise application any more.

There is a case to be made that the acidity of the dirt-like sphagnum peat moss helps some turtle and tortoise eggs during incubation through a process of calcium chelation, but my side-by-side experiments with clutches of sulcata eggs demonstrated no discernible difference. Some turtle breeders swear by it.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I think orchid moss is long fibered sphagnum moss. It is likely that I recommended long fibered sphagnum moss many years ago for humid hides, like around 2010, because that is what I was taught and what many "credible" sources recommended, but then every time I tried to use it, the tortoises would eat it. I had a couple of them get constipated from it, but luckily, I got rid of the moss before full-on impaction set in. Those tortoises were able to pass the moss with some help from me and some effort, but they survived and were fine.

I apologize for any confusion, but this is one of those things like mercury vapor bulbs, where it seemed great initially, but time and experience taught me that it was not the way to go. I do not recommend moss or sphagnum moss or peat moss or any thing along those lines for any tortoise application any more.

There is a case to be made that the acidity of the dirt-like sphagnum peat moss helps some turtle and tortoise eggs during incubation through a process of calcium chelation, but my side-by-side experiments with clutches of sulcata eggs demonstrated no discernible difference. Some turtle breeders swear by it.

I certainly appreciate the clarity then! I used it for several of my hatchlings without incident thinking I was doing right by them. I guess I'll no longer be recommending orchid moss/bark to anyone going further!

 

[Tom]

I certainly appreciate the clarity then! I used it for several of my hatchlings without incident thinking I was doing right by them. I guess I'll no longer be recommending orchid moss/bark to anyone going further!

Fine grade orchid bark is the best tortoise substrate for most applications. Its just the moss that proved to be a problem.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Fine grade orchid bark is the best tortoise substrate for most applications. Its just the moss that proved to be a problem.

Ah! This is what I had been using: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Better-Gro-1-8-cu-ft-Premium-Grade-Orchid-Moss-2-Pack-50455/202184438 but it became hard to find so I switched over to this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084614WDG/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 . Is the latter what you deem as acceptable and safe?

 

[wellington]

I certainly appreciate the clarity then! I used it for several of my hatchlings without incident thinking I was doing right by them. I guess I'll no longer be recommending orchid moss/bark to anyone going further!

That's why I had asked. I used the moss years ago, 2011. It got tangled around my hatchling tortoises leg. He also started to eat it. I quickly learned and was told by Tom not to use moss.
When I looked up the orchid moss, it looked like the same sphagnum moss I used years ago.

 

[wellington]

Ah! This is what I had been using: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Better-Gro-1-8-cu-ft-Premium-Grade-Orchid-Moss-2-Pack-50455/202184438 but it became hard to find so I switched over to this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084614WDG/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 . Is the latter what you deem as acceptable and safe?

Yeah, I think the orchid moss is actually sphagnum moss just packed for orchid as orchid moss. The orchid bark is fine. The fine grade orchid bark is better for hatchlings while the regular is fine for older ones. Fir bark is also the same and safe. I believe as orchid bark and fir bark is the same. .

 

[Tom]

Ah! This is what I had been using: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Better-Gro-1-8-cu-ft-Premium-Grade-Orchid-Moss-2-Pack-50455/202184438 but it became hard to find so I switched over to this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084614WDG/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20 . Is the latter what you deem as acceptable and safe?

The orchid bark says 100% fir bark, so that should be good to use, but its very expensive. $13.18 for 4 quarts. I buy it at my local nursery for $12 for 60 quarts.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

The orchid bark says 100% fir bark, so that should be good to use, but its very expensive. $13.18 for 4 quarts. I buy it at my local nursery for $12 for 60 quarts.

Thanks Tom. I hate giving out misinformation.