Consequences of MBD reversible?

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CRMstar

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Hello. I am new, and after chatting with some of you on the forum about my sulcata's slight pyramiding and small size, I think that the more I read about MBD, the more I see other symptoms I never thought were related, or even anything negative. Aside from slight pyramiding, she has a "hunched back" look, and her beak looks a little strange- it is more pointed, looks thin, and almost chipped (symptoms of MBD).
I am currently changing her substrate from 50/50 sand/soil mix to coco coir, adding a mercury vapor UV light, and adding a water bowl to the tank and keeping it tank humid. I know this will help her get "better", but my question is:
Is this disease a disease she will always have, or will she be able to become healthy and just show signs that she was once sick (slight pyramiding). Will her bones be able to become strong, and her shell begin to grow normally, and her beak become normal again? Thanks a lot for all of your advice so far, and all you have to say now. I have been really hit by guilt and fear lately because of these new discoveries in what I thought was a healthy tortoise.
I am also wondering, if the grass is damp outside, should I not let her out to walk on it? Also, with increasing humidity, I have been misting the tank...does that make the substrate too moist? All of this moisture is making me fear a respiratory infection might occur...can that be prevented from simply keeping temps up?
Here is my original post if you want more info on my tortoise and what I have done and am now changing and my reasons:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-77515.html
Below are some pictures showing her shell shape and beak.
 

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Dizisdalife

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I don't know if MBD is progressive or can be stopped with nutrition, sunshine, and exercise. You tortoise needs these regardless. You should not fear a respiratory infections from humidity as long as you keep the temps above 80. Your tortoise's shell will begin to grow in smooth with a high humidity and warm temp environment. Give it some time to happen. It won't seem obvious at first, then after a couple of months you will see the difference. Wet grass should be okay as long as the air temp is above 75 and there is sunshine.
 

rayneygirl

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my rescue tortoise has mbd, she used to drag her back limbs, and her shell is depleted. i'd say just keep fighting the fight, come on TF and learn as much as you can, i don't know if you can completely reverse it, ive been told whats done is done. lots of warm soaks and sunshine, exercise and humidity will help them out. good luck to you. by becoming concerned now is such a great step.
 

Laura

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I was told the one I have would not grow, will die young. He is growing, not as fast, but he lives outside 24/7 and walks normal now.

It depends on how bad it is or was and the type of damage.
 

sibi

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MBD is a something what affects the skeleton and organs of the animal. Whatever damage is done cannot be reversed; however, it can be stopped. If the animal is young enough, and the damage minimal, the animal can live a long life with improved conditions.

I have a sulcata that had been terribly abused. When i rescued her with the help of this forum, she only weighed 4 ounces and had a concaved carapace near the top of her head. My immediate concern was to provide a healthy diet and environment. I watched her every day for hours. I noticed she couldn't stretch out her neck far enough to reach food. The concaved carapace effected her backbone, thus, not allowing her to eat properly. This made/caused her condition to worsen. When I got her, she was 3 years old and weighed in at 4 ounces. I began to hand feed her, and provided heat, humidity, supplements, good food, and lots of TLC. She is now 4, and is just under 3 lbs! I've had her for 10 months, and she had gained more than 2 1/2 lbs! She looks healthier, happier, and she's showing signs that she may be able to eat on her own soon. While the shell will always have the damage, what's growing in is smoother and stronger. Her plastron is not soft anymore, and I only hope and pray that her kidneys and other organs are fine. In the future, I'd have to watch out for egg impaction if she is female. Other than that, I have great hope for her living a long, healthy life. So, my question to you is how old is she/he? I think if things are changed, MBD can be stopped but not reversed. Whatever damage was done will stay, but the condition can improve and further damage avoided.
 

CRMstar

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Thank you all for your comments, and sorry to hear about such sick torts :( Do you think mine looks really bad? She walks well, and her shell is not soft. She also eats a lot, and walks a lot in the yard and her tank.
She is 4. She is very small (about 6 inches). I do not know her weight, but I guess that would be a good thing to start tracking so that I can monitor her progress. Her diet is good, but I guess could be more varied. Exercise good. I guess she really just did not get any humidity (I always read to keep them dry except for soakings), and could use more sun, maybe.
 

sibi

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If she's improving, you're doing something right. The MBD is a result of poor diet, little or no sunshine (vitamin D3) and little or no calcium. For a tortoise, that would be deadly over time. Get calcium supplements in his food 3-4 times a week, have the calcium be of some benefit by having the tort get natural sunshine so it can produce the vitamin D3 it so desperately needs. Along with humidity and exercise, your tortoise will live a long, health life too. I don't think the pyramiding is too bad, but I think I see an under bite in one of the pics. This can cause your tort to eat less because of either pain in biting or not being able to eat properly. You shouldn't try to file it or anything. Sullies don't have beaks like RT or other torts. The under bite, if that's what he has, will correct itself in time as he grows. How much humidity does he get in his hide/enclosure? Have you read all of Tom's threads on sulcata care? Because, even though the care is for torts under a year old, it can still benefit from the overall care especially with MBD.

CRMstar said:
Thank you all for your comments, and sorry to hear about such sick torts :( Do you think mine looks really bad? She walks well, and her shell is not soft. She also eats a lot, and walks a lot in the yard and her tank.
She is 4. She is very small (about 6 inches). I do not know her weight, but I guess that would be a good thing to start tracking so that I can monitor her progress. Her diet is good, but I guess could be more varied. Exercise good. I guess she really just did not get any humidity (I always read to keep them dry except for soakings), and could use more sun, maybe.
 

Ferretinmyshoes

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If caught in the very early stages almost all of the damage can be reversed or at least stopped. Turtles and tortoises however are challenging because they grow so slowly that by the time evidence of MBD is readily visible the disease is already in the advanced stages. It can still be stopped, but some damage may be permanent. Usually it's in the form of stunted growth and shell deformities. Some will still be able to grow out of their shell deformities enough to be normal, and some are too far gone. This is a redfoot tortoise who lived for 10 years in a small tank filled with cedar shavings about 3 times taller than she was with mostly iceberg lettuce diet, no supplements and no UVB light. She was too weak to even be able to lift her shell to walk when I got her, and as you can see her shell is extremely deformed. Her organs may not all fit well as she continues to grow due to the shape of her shell. With heavy calcium supplementation and being outdoors 24/7 getting lots of sunshine she was much stronger and able to climb over things and hold her shell completely off the ground after about two months. Her legs are also permanently deformed so every time she walks her legs hit her in the face because of how they're curved.

IMG_1327_zps73b39283.jpg


More info on MBD:
Bone Disease (MBD) is unfortunately a common disease of reptiles due to lack of dietary calcium, imbalanced nutrition and/or lack of UVB rays. UVB rays from either unfiltered sunlight or a UVB producing bulb are needed in reptiles to produce Vitamin D3 in the skin, which is necessary to absorb calcium from the food and supplementation. Without UVB rays then your reptile cannot absorb the calcium you are giving it. If you are not providing an adequate level of calcium in the diet then no amount of UVB will make up for it. Too high levels of phosphorus in the diet will interfere with calcium absorption so even with good calcium levels and UVB the body is still not getting enough. There are many body processes that require calcium, such as muscle contraction, energy metabolism, intestinal movement, nerve conduction, blood vessel function, and bone strength. To compensate for inadequate calcium absorption the body will pull calcium directly out of the bones where it is stored so there is enough calcium for critical functions like muscle movement and metabolism. This causes the bones to be very weak, even to the point of bending or breaking very easily. Chronic calcium deficiency causes continued damage to multiple organs, eventual organ failure and death. Lack of sufficient calcium for muscle movement can lead to constipation and very often egg binding in females, which is life threatening in itself. Due to the calcium deficiency affecting entire body in drastic way these reptiles can easily develop concurrent illnesses, such as respiratory infections, eye infections, etc. Calcium needs are the highest during the first years of life while bones are growing quickly so it is often young reptiles that are most affected. There are rare cases of metabolic disease occurring despite proper calcium and UVB and a congenital component is suspected, though not confirmed. Almost every instance of MBD can be completely attributed to deficiency in care.

Metabolic bone disease takes a long time to develop, and conversely takes a long time to resolve. Correcting your husbandry and providing adequate calcium, nutrition through gutloading, and UVB is the first critical step. However, the deficit of calcium needs to be addressed with additional supplementation before the body can function normally and begin to heal. A small drop of liquid calcium (without D3) can be given twice daily for a month to replace the calcium deficit. UVB, especially in the form of unfiltered sunlight, is essential. Force feeding may be required to nurse a weak, very ill reptile back to health. It is very important to address MBD as soon as symptoms are noticed to stop the damage being done. Sometimes symptoms are so severe that chameleons will not survive, despite aggressive treatment, due to permanent organ damage. But some chameleons can make truly remarkable recoveries from severe MBD with a lot of intensive care.
 

Tom

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Pyramiding cannot be reversed. MBD most certainly can. These are two separate issues and you can have one without the other, or you can have both at the same time.

Wet grass will not cause shell rot or any sort of RI.

I'm not so sure that your tortoise has MBD. Pyramiding and an oddly shaped carapace, yes, but not necessarily MBD. I would not worry about it. Provide the best care and diet that you can and enjoy your tortoise.
 

CRMstar

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Tom said:
Pyramiding cannot be reversed. MBD most certainly can. These are two separate issues and you can have one without the other, or you can have both at the same time.

Wet grass will not cause shell rot or any sort of RI.

I'm not so sure that your tortoise has MBD. Pyramiding and an oddly shaped carapace, yes, but not necessarily MBD. I would not worry about it. Provide the best care and diet that you can and enjoy your tortoise.

That's great to hear. She always has had a nice diet, and sunlight (but could probably use more). I think the issue must be with moisture. That is what I have not done right. I always read to keep them dry until a week or two ago.
 

Ferretinmyshoes

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As Tom said, pyramiding is not synonymous with MBD as pyramiding can be seen in perfectly healthy tortoises.
 

CRMstar

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sibi said:
If she's improving, you're doing something right. The MBD is a result of poor diet, little or no sunshine (vitamin D3) and little or no calcium. For a tortoise, that would be deadly over time. Get calcium supplements in his food 3-4 times a week, have the calcium be of some benefit by having the tort get natural sunshine so it can produce the vitamin D3 it so desperately needs. Along with humidity and exercise, your tortoise will live a long, health life too. I don't think the pyramiding is too bad, but I think I see an under bite in one of the pics. This can cause your tort to eat less because of either pain in biting or not being able to eat properly. You shouldn't try to file it or anything. Sullies don't have beaks like RT or other torts. The under bite, if that's what he has, will correct itself in time as he grows. How much humidity does he get in his hide/enclosure? Have you read all of Tom's threads on sulcata care? Because, even though the care is for torts under a year old, it can still benefit from the overall care especially with MBD.

I have read all of the info about humidity, and I have been making changes. I think that must be the culprit, and maybe not enough sun. But i always supplement calcium with D3. I have to file her beak? Eeek...ouch. That really sounds like something I don't know that I can do. I read somewhere that people feed their torts on a slate slab to help.Do you think that would be good to try?

CRMstar said:
Thank you all for your comments, and sorry to hear about such sick torts :( Do you think mine looks really bad? She walks well, and her shell is not soft. She also eats a lot, and walks a lot in the yard and her tank.
She is 4. She is very small (about 6 inches). I do not know her weight, but I guess that would be a good thing to start tracking so that I can monitor her progress. Her diet is good, but I guess could be more varied. Exercise good. I guess she really just did not get any humidity (I always read to keep them dry except for soakings), and could use more sun, maybe.


Ferretinmyshoes said:
As Tom said, pyramiding is not synonymous with MBD as pyramiding can be seen in perfectly healthy tortoises.

That's good. I guess I am not very good at telling the symptoms. As long as people on here don't look at her and think she is very deformed, I guess I feel a little better and will just keep up with my new routine.
 

ascott

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The tort I see here is not deformed....and the pyramiding is slight...I would just be sure to offer at the least a warm humid hide for her to access when she desires to as well as a cool dry area for her to access when needed as well....
 

CRMstar

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Dizisdalife said:
I don't know if MBD is progressive or can be stopped with nutrition, sunshine, and exercise. You tortoise needs these regardless. You should not fear a respiratory infections from humidity as long as you keep the temps above 80. Your tortoise's shell will begin to grow in smooth with a high humidity and warm temp environment. Give it some time to happen. It won't seem obvious at first, then after a couple of months you will see the difference. Wet grass should be okay as long as the air temp is above 75 and there is sunshine.

Great to know.


ascott said:
The tort I see here is not deformed....and the pyramiding is slight...I would just be sure to offer at the least a warm humid hide for her to access when she desires to as well as a cool dry area for her to access when needed as well....

Thank you, that makes me feel better. I will do this.
 

Lilyloveslettuse

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Grandma here...After reading all of this I think it was a good thing that we bought Lily from her previous owner! She is small for her age too I think but before we got her last Mother's Day she didn't have substrate for digging - just carpet to crawl on and a small spot at that - a poor diet and no outside time to speak of. She has gained 1/4 lb. since we've had her the past 3 months and eats ALOT now. Mostly grass, weeds, flowers etc. mixed in with a little spring mix and bits of carrot, celery and organic apple. When we first got her she wasn't very active and would only eat once a day in the morning and then dig in and sleep the rest of the day and night. Now she is VERY active and eats 2 big "salad" meals a day plus anything that she grazes on outside. She gets a soak almost every day and has a water bowl in her habitat plus the moist potting soil/outside dirt substrate. She seems very happy and we can see growth lines on her now. :)
 

Tom

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Grandma, she'd do even better if you cut out the apple and reduced the carrot a lot. Everything else sounds great! :)
 

CRMstar

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Lilyloveslettuse said:
Grandma here...After reading all of this I think it was a good thing that we bought Lily from her previous owner! She is small for her age too I think but before we got her last Mother's Day she didn't have substrate for digging - just carpet to crawl on and a small spot at that - a poor diet and no outside time to speak of. She has gained 1/4 lb. since we've had her the past 3 months and eats ALOT now. Mostly grass, weeds, flowers etc. mixed in with a little spring mix and bits of carrot, celery and organic apple. When we first got her she wasn't very active and would only eat once a day in the morning and then dig in and sleep the rest of the day and night. Now she is VERY active and eats 2 big "salad" meals a day plus anything that she grazes on outside. She gets a soak almost every day and has a water bowl in her habitat plus the moist potting soil/outside dirt substrate. She seems very happy and we can see growth lines on her now. :)

That's great. Sounds like she was not in a very good environment. I would love to see a pic of her and know her age. Did she have any deformities in her shell? I am going to start weighing my tort too with, I guess, a food scale. Seems a good way to tell if a small tort is growing.
 

Lilyloveslettuse

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Grandma here :) Thanks Tom! We will cut the apple and not so many carrots. As soon as I find the cord hookup to my digital camera we will post a picture here. :) We weigh her on my food scale. I don't think she has any deformities. Maybe a tiny bit of pyramiding, but I think that we got her in time to make a difference and it will even out eventually. I think Lily must be close to 2 years old. The guy got her when she was about 4 mon. old he said and then had her a little over a year and we have had her since Mother's Day of this year. He kept her in his apt. on a small piece of carpet on the floor.
 

CRMstar

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Lilyloveslettuse said:
Grandma here :) Thanks Tom! We will cut the apple and not so many carrots. As soon as I find the cord hookup to my digital camera we will post a picture here. :) We weigh her on my food scale. I don't think she has any deformities. Maybe a tiny bit of pyramiding, but I think that we got her in time to make a difference and it will even out eventually. I think Lily must be close to 2 years old. The guy got her when she was about 4 mon. old he said and then had her a little over a year and we have had her since Mother's Day of this year. He kept her in his apt. on a small piece of carpet on the floor.

Well, good for you for saving her, and thanks for sharing.
 
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