Diminishing thickness?

[jeff kushner]

Yes, an effective "hook" to draw the reader in...okay admit it was cheezy but.................now that you're here....

I'm talking about skin thickness and the seemingly thinning of human skin in general. It still seems pretty strong and flexible in person but online, skin has seemingly gotten very, very thin!

Everyone here has seen someone get twisted online. People will even demand that no one criticize them in any way...whoa? We all see it everywhere today online. Anger, hate, accusations....all in a pretend world yet people get physically affected! Don't they know it's make-believe?

Being Objective though....
There have been antagonists via writing throughout human history which is wonderful because it gives the sociologists a baseline to see the exponential progression of incidence. Let's not pretend though that the Keyboard warrior hasn't existed even before what's his name first invented the printing press. Whitney, no that was the gin, ...a German guy.....dang I hate when this happens. 3 syllables..........GUTENBURG (yup, without google too)! Sorry, I get sidetracked sometimes.

Anyway, do people seem to be so much more sensitive to any kind of challenge or conflict today? Do they seem less equipped to handle important decisions?

Or, it's it just my perception?

jeff

 

[Maggie3fan]

Yes, an effective "hook" to draw the reader in...okay admit it was cheezy but.................now that you're here....

I'm talking about skin thickness and the seemingly thinning of human skin in general. It still seems pretty strong and flexible in person but online, skin has seemingly gotten very, very thin!

Everyone here has seen someone get twisted online. People will even demand that no one criticize them in any way...whoa? We all see it everywhere today online. Anger, hate, accusations....all in a pretend world yet people get physically affected! Don't they know it's make-believe?

Being Objective though....
There have been antagonists via writing throughout human history which is wonderful because it gives the sociologists a baseline to see the exponential progression of incidence. Let's not pretend though that the Keyboard warrior hasn't existed even before what's his name first invented the printing press. Whitney, no that was the gin, ...a German guy.....dang I hate when this happens. 3 syllables..........GUTENBURG (yup, without google too)! Sorry, I get sidetracked sometimes.

Anyway, do people seem to be so much more sensitive to any kind of challenge or conflict today? Do they seem less equipped to handle important decisions?

Or, it's it just my perception?

jeff

I think the more population we get the more irritable and aggressive. I also think that when a newbie introduces themselves there are 120 people who attack with all the statements, heat, light and humidity.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

For people to really challenge their own belief system to learn different things and grow requires offense at the onset. The whole "It's not ok to offend people" movement is by design imo.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Gee, I thought this was going to be all about the ozone level & climate change. Or, diminishing thickness of skin & calluses since there are fewer and fewer people working with their hands! ?‍♂️

 

[Maggie3fan]

Gee, I thought this was going to be all about the ozone level & climate change. Or, diminishing thickness of skin & calluses since there are fewer and fewer people working with their hands! ?‍♂️

And I thought I was going to find out where the giant blood spots on my arms come from...heck!

 

[JoFisch]

It feels like people are just angry. I think chronic stress is the biggest culprit. We have been bombarded with the attitude that those with opposing views should be hated.
We are having to slog through work and life with increased difficulty because of the pandemic.
I think many marginalized groups are finally finding their voices and are demanding changes that are hard for others to swallow.
It feels that empathy isn’t valued in this country.
I have had to avoid a lot of media (social and traditional) just so I don’t get sucked into the anger. I’ll probably regret making this post because I feel like it will be a beacon for anger.

 

[bluRose09]

I agree empathy is not valued.

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion, there are a lot of new members who are pretty darned proud of their new tortoise set up (that they got from info online or the petshop or their vet) and they come here to show us how proud they are. We proceed to jump all over them with what Maggie referred to, wrong lights, wrong substrate, wrong, wrong, wrong!! That's not what they wanted to hear. They wanted a pat on the back and to be told what a good tortoise-keeper they are.

We all need to try to figure out just how to tell these new members how wrong they are without being so accusatory. Maybe instead we can say something like, "Hi, and Welcome to the Forum! I'm so glad to see you here with us. Quite a bit of what you've been told by the petshop, your vet, or online, is old and outdated information. We have put together a pretty good thread for new tortoise-keepers. You'll find everything here - (and insert a good thread for beginners [do we have such a thread?])"

We are not using the FAQ section nearly enough, in fact, not at all. Almost everything a new member is doing wrong has been addressed in the FAQ section and it would be SO EASY for us to copy/paste a thread title from the FAQ instead of typing up all the things that are wrong with the newbie's tortoise-keeping.

 

[JoFisch]

In my opinion, there are a lot of new members who are pretty darned proud of their new tortoise set up (that they got from info online or the petshop or their vet) and they come here to show us how proud they are. We proceed to jump all over them with what Maggie referred to, wrong lights, wrong substrate, wrong, wrong, wrong!! That's not what they wanted to hear. They wanted a pat on the back and to be told what a good tortoise-keeper they are.

We all need to try to figure out just how to tell these new members how wrong they are without being so accusatory. Maybe instead we can say something like, "Hi, and Welcome to the Forum! I'm so glad to see you here with us. Quite a bit of what you've been told by the petshop, your vet, or online, is old and outdated information. We have put together a pretty good thread for new tortoise-keepers. You'll find everything here - (and insert a good thread for beginners [do we have such a thread?])"

We are not using the FAQ section nearly enough, in fact, not at all. Almost everything a new member is doing wrong has been addressed in the FAQ section and it would be SO EASY for us to copy/paste a thread title from the FAQ instead of typing up all the things that are wrong with the newbie's tortoise-keeping.

I really like Yvonne’s suggestion. I am a newbie but luckily I found the forum before I had a tortoise so I found out how passionate some of the members are before I needed to post anything. Not everybody finds the forum before they make the investment and they aren’t aware of how many different people the experts have had to argue with.
I think directing people to read the care sheets and some of the other threads will help them understand why the experts are giving the advice they give and maybe be more willing to listen.

 

[Jan A]

I really like Yvonne’s suggestion. I am a newbie but luckily I found the forum before I had a tortoise so I found out how passionate some of the members are before I needed to post anything. Not everybody finds the forum before they make the investment and they aren’t aware of how many different people the experts have had to argue with.
I think directing people to read the care sheets and some of the other threads will help them understand why the experts are giving the advice they give and maybe be more willing to listen.

I would agree with you. I tend to read thru a lot of threads--old & new-- when looking for an answer. But that is totally in line with my education & work experience.

Unfortunately, the internet has trained some to become impatient--there just has to be an immediate right answer!! And "I'm right" because I saw it somewhere else on reddit, Facebook, etc.

Perhaps upon registering with the forum, maybe new members should automatically have to read a couple of docs before posting threads. And if it's a newbie "emergency," it automatically goes to a moderator(s).

I'm all for improved communication. I'm not for the unsolicited criticism of our experts & experienced owners & breeders by "newbies" who have no idea how much time everyone VOLUNTARILY gives of themselves & responds to the same questions ad nauseum.

 

[Len B]

And I thought I was going to find out where the giant blood spots on my arms come from...heck!

I think mine come from the 60s and 70s and blood thinners today.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I think that when a newbie introduces themselves and asks a question...if Tom gives one of his lengthy in depth replies and in a nice way he tells the newbie or noob what is wrong , anyway so Tom answers, so does Wellington and 2 or 3 others...don't freakin chime in with this is bad... this is wrong!!! If enuf of us say that, even I would feel attacked. We need to think before we post...this ain't a popularity contest...some of you who post regularly are doing it so another tortoise might live, other's are here for the social aspect. I just think maybe we need to handle most new tortoise keepers a little easier and post a care sheet for their species or link to...kinda make them do their own research after we have pointed them in the right direction...yeah...I actually did just say that!
Like this...read their complete post...then think twice before you respond. Not something written in stone...just an idea
this is one of my unnamed water turtles, he looks a little rough as he is shedding scutes right now...

 

[Maggie3fan]

I think about the new "rehabber", who came in all excited and bragging about she was a great "rehabber" and yet did everything wrong... every thing...so we did what we do and she ended up by telling Y, I think, to "stop talking to me"!!! Remember her? We did attack her...not Y but me and a couple of others...

 

[RatQueen_Irene]

From the perspective of someone who had 9/10 of things figured out when they arrived for feedback/advice and who lurks all the new threads, the moderators and long time members who jump in to offer advice tend to have a very hostile tone in those initial replies, though I don't believe it's always intended. Not on my posts pretty much, but in general those of others that I've seen with worse setups. New folks obviously care a lot about their tortoise and are by and large asking for help, but no one wants to be accused of slowly murdering them.

I tend to disagree that someone needs to be offended first, all that does it make them defensive and put up walls from the get go. I appreciate the time that people put into replying and offering care advice, but you can see the difference it makes when you say a non-judging, fact based "This substrate is better for these reasons, the substrate currently in use can cause x, y, z" rather than "You're killing your tortoise. This substrate is horrible for them and everything you've been doing is wrong." People can say all of that without coming off as angry and hostile, using a neutral tone.

For evidence of the base concept, look at police interrogations for example. Getting someone interested in complying doesn't start with accusations and hostility, this has been proven to shut people down entirely. Coming at the angle of being a friend trying to help is the standard for a reason, people are much more willing to listen to advice to come forward, and help their tortoise.

Navigating the forum can be confusing for people, I couldn't find relevant FAQs or care sheets. In the hermann section for example, the new care sheet for mediterranean tortoises isn't pinned. I followed the old 2019ish "Updated caresheet" pinned there to nearly a T, and got implied accusations of listening to a pet store without research into best methods.

People only start saying they don't want feedback, when that feedback is laced with judgements of their character. Even if someone says that, the course of action is not to respond in hostility. They've put up walls and gone in their shell for a reason. The method to get them to come out and follow advice isn't to shake the tortoise haha

It's not a new thing that kindness/factual speech leads to convincing someone, the world is learning that it's not effective to be hostile, and that behavior is being called out or not accepted.

 

[Maggie3fan]

From the perspective of someone who had 9/10 of things figured out when they arrived for feedback/advice and who lurks all the new threads, the moderators and long time members who jump in to offer advice tend to have a very hostile tone in those initial replies, though I don't believe it's always intended. Not on my posts pretty much, but in general those of others that I've seen with worse setups. New folks obviously care a lot about their tortoise and are by and large asking for help, but no one wants to be accused of slowly murdering them.

I tend to disagree that someone needs to be offended first, all that does it make them defensive and put up walls from the get go. I appreciate the time that people put into replying and offering care advice, but you can see the difference it makes when you say a non-judging, fact based "This substrate is better for these reasons, the substrate currently in use can cause x, y, z" rather than "You're killing your tortoise. This substrate is horrible for them and everything you've been doing is wrong." People can say all of that without coming off as angry and hostile, using a neutral tone.

For evidence of the base concept, look at police interrogations for example. Getting someone interested in complying doesn't start with accusations and hostility, this has been proven to shut people down entirely. Coming at the angle of being a friend trying to help is the standard for a reason, people are much more willing to listen to advice to come forward, and help their tortoise.

Navigating the forum can be confusing for people, I couldn't find relevant FAQs or care sheets. In the hermann section for example, the new care sheet for mediterranean tortoises isn't pinned. I followed the old 2019ish "Updated caresheet" pinned there to nearly a T, and got implied accusations of listening to a pet store without research into best methods.

People only start saying they don't want feedback, when that feedback is laced with judgements of their character. Even if someone says that, the course of action is not to respond in hostility. They've put up walls and gone in their shell for a reason. The method to get them to come out and follow advice isn't to shake the tortoise haha

It's not a new thing that kindness/factual speech leads to convincing someone, the world is learning that it's not effective to be hostile, and that behavior is being called out or not accepted.

Hey there Corvallis!!! I live 2 miles north of the hospital off 99...we'll have to meet some day if you are interested...

 

[mark1]

when telling someone something , folks doing the telling need to understand the difference between facts and opinions .....nothing wrong with giving opinion , lots of opinions are true and fact based , fact based does not make an opinion a fact or even true ..... giving folks opinions and conveying them as facts is a sure way to lose someones respect for you as a source of information ...... i can see how a groups opinions passed on as hard facts can alienate someone , especially if your opinions/facts cannot be backed up by logic ....... the internet/social media can make something look way more factual than it really is ..... anyone offended by anothers respectfully given opinion is unreasonable...... anyone offended by a fact , well they got persional issues .....JMO

 

[Yvonne G]

I think that when we are advising a new member on the correct (what WE think is correct) way to do things, if we see that someone else has already said what we planned to say, back out and don't say it. Why do we think we have to jump on the band wagon and say again what's already been said? Instead, say something like, "I agree with what x x has told you."

 

[RatQueen_Irene]

Thinking on it more to pinpoint what I mean by hostile language, I think that it's heavily related to commands. Short, terse sentences straight up saying "Stop doing x. You're killing your tortoise." vs "From experience seeing x happen when y is done, I'd strongly advise to do z right away." As said above, both opinions and facts are stated as absolute law a lot of the time, from a place assuming direct authority

Once that command is given, the wall is already up, no matter how much reasoning and logic based on science and experience is given afterward. Best I think to start with reasoning, and expand on evidence if someone still has doubts. It's more effort in the long run to try to lower walls rather than not raising them to begin with

 

[Cathie G]

I can only speak for myself. When I first found the TFO, I still didn't have a clue on how to actually use my smart phone let alone this site. Most of the time I still don't ?. Having the links posted may have helped sooner though. I did know how to touch those. I found the instructions about a person's first post months after my I'd already posted one. Sorry ? Really though I didn't actually feel like I'd been jumped on by anyone here. I was just happy to get a response from real people. That's one reason I stayed. But I'm one of those crazy people that wants to see the pros and cons first before I make a decision.

 

[Humbug & Maz]

Perhaps upon registering with the forum, maybe new members should automatically have to read a couple of docs before posting threads. And if it's a newbie "emergency," it automatically goes to a moderator(s).

I'm all for improved communication. I'm not for the unsolicited criticism of our experts & experienced owners & breeders by "newbies" who have no idea how much time everyone VOLUNTARILY gives of themselves & responds to the same questions ad nauseum.

I think Yvonne is right about starting with something like "Hi, and Welcome to the Forum! I'm so glad to see you here with us. Quite a bit of what you've been told by the pet shop, your vet, or online, is old and outdated information. We have put together a pretty good thread for new tortoise-keepers. You'll find everything here - (and insert a good thread for beginners [do we have such a thread?])" (A beginners thread would be great!)

Jan also makes a good point here that perhaps new members could be directed to read some documents before posting (unless an emergency which could automatically go to mods/admin). Perhaps some of the pinned care sheets need to be the current ones.

I was confused when I first posted and put it in the wrong section but then got the hang of everything and have appreciated the advice given on here plus I like to come back to learn more. I also know the guidance is given freely by tortoise lovers/experts and I enjoy being on this forum, but it took a little while for me to get used to it all.

Members need to be encouraged to come back and feel a part of it all. It is easy for people to feel embarrassed that they got bad advice from pet stores (therefore sometimes people can get defensive) and they just need encouragement to get things right. As others have said, not everyone is lucky enough to find this forum BEFORE they buy their tortoise. It IS the best forum out there!