If your squeamish don’t read this thread.
This tortoise was 5 months old.
SCL is 66mm
Weight is 57g
Carapace weight is 14g.
I had one of my 5 month old babies die a couple days ago. Why it died I don’t know. The other 23 babies are thriving.
I’ve noticed that they are all getting that crevice that I dread, and as usual it’s around the 5 month old period. I reckon I’ve got about a 30% rate of growing smooth tortoises. So from super smooth to pyramided. I’ve tried every single diet, hydration method you can think of and still I get a variation in growth.
There’s on going debates regarding pyramiding, grow them slow and keep them wet being the main two methods.
All my babies and I mean every single one are super smooth up until around the 5 month old stage. Then for some reason some of them start to pyramid at different degrees. This always coincides with that first crevice.
These (now) 23 babies are in a closed system with no intense heat spots, I have a uvb tube over the feeding area, I soak them daily, I spray them regularly and the humidity is 99%. I have fed zero protein until today.
Because we’ve had such a hot summer the weeds have struggled to grow in 2018, the majority of food has been grocery bought greens, with occasional mushroom and fruit. I’ve sprinkles nutrobal on food every other day.
In an attempt to learn more about how they grow I’ve dissected the baby that died. Disgusting I know, but sick of 2nd guessing how these animals grow at such a young age.
Here are some photos that I have taken.
You’ll have to excuse me because I’m an engineer, not a scientist or biologist and I’m out of my comfort zone. Please, anyone who can speak on a more professional term about this, then do so. My version is the lame mans version
From what I’m seeing it’s basically a frame made up of bones, the spine and 16 ribs with a canopy(carapace) of bone and keratin laid over the frame. All the areola are anchored down to the ribs, The ribs, 8 on each side come from the spine down to marginal scutes 3 to 10 and to the opposite numbers.
I’m not seeing any fontanels at this age, the whole carapace is very very flexible.
I cut it length ways down the middle of the coastal areola. You can see where that crevice is digging into the bone at the 5 month mark. You can also see that the keratin is a constant thickness(about 0.2mm). I’m not see any thickening of keratin where it expands to fill the crevice.
So that means that unless the bone grows thicker and pushes the supple keratin up it will always remain a groove.
I then made a 2nd cut vertically through the coastal scute to see if it was the ribs that are causing crevice, as I thought it is not. Because the crevice between marginal and coastal scute is the same, the keratin is dig into the bone.
Thinking outside the box knowing that there are many well respected breeders on here, and I do listen too every one. Some say slow growth and some say hydration. Imo both have valid points and both methods produce smooth and bumpy tortoises. For this reason we are not on the right track. I we can not produce 100% smooth tortoises then we haven’t nailed it.
Soooo.... this is where I could get shot down and I’m pretty certain I’ve not thought of everything and I may well be off the right track.
If we imagine a tortoises carapace and bone framework like an umbrella. When we open an umbrella it pulls the fabric taut and creates a smooth tight canopy. (Or a tent).
If we don’t get the spine and ribs to grow strong and healthy it will not pull the carapace taut. This combined with growing too dry or too wet may cause pyramiding.
If we grow the bone frame in a dry climate then all that’s happening is it’s pushing the areola away from the seems of the scutes creating pyramiding because the seems are not flexible.
If we grow them slow in a dry climate then the carapace and keratin are forced to push on each other, it will force the keratin to push down into the bone.
If we grow them slow and wet then the carapace and keratin are not kept taut because it’s too flexible and not being stretched.
If we grow the bone framework fast and keep the tortoise hydrated it will keep the supple carapace taut and in theory grow smooth. (I’m hoping).
The only way to get bones to grow strong and fast is protein. This doesn’t necessarily mean animal protein. It could be plant protein. I’m pretty sure my diet is not good regarding protein because I’ve had to rely on grocery greens for most part.
Then I ask myself, so why would they grow smooth for 5 months then all of a sudden pyramid slightly. I can only think the initial eggsack supply of protein has come to an end.
I know there are thoughts about kidney damage with higher protein. Higher protein levels also increase calcium absorption I believe.
Maybe they require higher protein levels for a short while when young and as they grow to adult hood that changes. Maybe insects and bugs are a big part of the diet whilst young to get the boost for the bone framework to grow fast and strong. They would also get the vitamins required from let’s say, ants.
When we say vitamin D is a soluble vitamin that can be stored in fat, where are the fat stores. In the blood?
I keep thinking back to my baby homeana. 90% protein and they’ve all grown on to be super smooth and seem healthy.
I also keep thinking back to the first 3 redfoots I raised, being a novice I fed them everything and anything. Loads of protein. They all grew up smooth.
Then I seen Carl’s Feral redfoot. That doesn’t look like it’s grown slow to me.
Is there main priority as a hatching to find rich foods and methods of hydration.
Has anyone ever raised them on a high protein diet with high hydration until their carapace and plastron become hard?
Even if I’m 100% wrong and way off with this ludicrous thought, it doesn’t matter if someone else can think of something more realistic from these photos.
What I’ve learnt from dissecting this tort is, there’s no fontanels and the keratin doesn’t seem to swell up. The keratin and carapace bone can not be split apart which suggests they grow in tandem.
If the bone framework grows too slow it can not keep the carapace taut. If the carapace is kept too dry it will deform the bone framework is what I’m thinking.
Need a beer.
This tortoise was 5 months old.
SCL is 66mm
Weight is 57g
Carapace weight is 14g.
I had one of my 5 month old babies die a couple days ago. Why it died I don’t know. The other 23 babies are thriving.
I’ve noticed that they are all getting that crevice that I dread, and as usual it’s around the 5 month old period. I reckon I’ve got about a 30% rate of growing smooth tortoises. So from super smooth to pyramided. I’ve tried every single diet, hydration method you can think of and still I get a variation in growth.
There’s on going debates regarding pyramiding, grow them slow and keep them wet being the main two methods.
All my babies and I mean every single one are super smooth up until around the 5 month old stage. Then for some reason some of them start to pyramid at different degrees. This always coincides with that first crevice.
These (now) 23 babies are in a closed system with no intense heat spots, I have a uvb tube over the feeding area, I soak them daily, I spray them regularly and the humidity is 99%. I have fed zero protein until today.
Because we’ve had such a hot summer the weeds have struggled to grow in 2018, the majority of food has been grocery bought greens, with occasional mushroom and fruit. I’ve sprinkles nutrobal on food every other day.
In an attempt to learn more about how they grow I’ve dissected the baby that died. Disgusting I know, but sick of 2nd guessing how these animals grow at such a young age.
Here are some photos that I have taken.
You’ll have to excuse me because I’m an engineer, not a scientist or biologist and I’m out of my comfort zone. Please, anyone who can speak on a more professional term about this, then do so. My version is the lame mans version
From what I’m seeing it’s basically a frame made up of bones, the spine and 16 ribs with a canopy(carapace) of bone and keratin laid over the frame. All the areola are anchored down to the ribs, The ribs, 8 on each side come from the spine down to marginal scutes 3 to 10 and to the opposite numbers.
I’m not seeing any fontanels at this age, the whole carapace is very very flexible.
I cut it length ways down the middle of the coastal areola. You can see where that crevice is digging into the bone at the 5 month mark. You can also see that the keratin is a constant thickness(about 0.2mm). I’m not see any thickening of keratin where it expands to fill the crevice.
So that means that unless the bone grows thicker and pushes the supple keratin up it will always remain a groove.
I then made a 2nd cut vertically through the coastal scute to see if it was the ribs that are causing crevice, as I thought it is not. Because the crevice between marginal and coastal scute is the same, the keratin is dig into the bone.
Thinking outside the box knowing that there are many well respected breeders on here, and I do listen too every one. Some say slow growth and some say hydration. Imo both have valid points and both methods produce smooth and bumpy tortoises. For this reason we are not on the right track. I we can not produce 100% smooth tortoises then we haven’t nailed it.
Soooo.... this is where I could get shot down and I’m pretty certain I’ve not thought of everything and I may well be off the right track.
If we imagine a tortoises carapace and bone framework like an umbrella. When we open an umbrella it pulls the fabric taut and creates a smooth tight canopy. (Or a tent).
If we don’t get the spine and ribs to grow strong and healthy it will not pull the carapace taut. This combined with growing too dry or too wet may cause pyramiding.
If we grow the bone frame in a dry climate then all that’s happening is it’s pushing the areola away from the seems of the scutes creating pyramiding because the seems are not flexible.
If we grow them slow in a dry climate then the carapace and keratin are forced to push on each other, it will force the keratin to push down into the bone.
If we grow them slow and wet then the carapace and keratin are not kept taut because it’s too flexible and not being stretched.
If we grow the bone framework fast and keep the tortoise hydrated it will keep the supple carapace taut and in theory grow smooth. (I’m hoping).
The only way to get bones to grow strong and fast is protein. This doesn’t necessarily mean animal protein. It could be plant protein. I’m pretty sure my diet is not good regarding protein because I’ve had to rely on grocery greens for most part.
Then I ask myself, so why would they grow smooth for 5 months then all of a sudden pyramid slightly. I can only think the initial eggsack supply of protein has come to an end.
I know there are thoughts about kidney damage with higher protein. Higher protein levels also increase calcium absorption I believe.
Maybe they require higher protein levels for a short while when young and as they grow to adult hood that changes. Maybe insects and bugs are a big part of the diet whilst young to get the boost for the bone framework to grow fast and strong. They would also get the vitamins required from let’s say, ants.
When we say vitamin D is a soluble vitamin that can be stored in fat, where are the fat stores. In the blood?
I keep thinking back to my baby homeana. 90% protein and they’ve all grown on to be super smooth and seem healthy.
I also keep thinking back to the first 3 redfoots I raised, being a novice I fed them everything and anything. Loads of protein. They all grew up smooth.
Then I seen Carl’s Feral redfoot. That doesn’t look like it’s grown slow to me.
Is there main priority as a hatching to find rich foods and methods of hydration.
Has anyone ever raised them on a high protein diet with high hydration until their carapace and plastron become hard?
Even if I’m 100% wrong and way off with this ludicrous thought, it doesn’t matter if someone else can think of something more realistic from these photos.
What I’ve learnt from dissecting this tort is, there’s no fontanels and the keratin doesn’t seem to swell up. The keratin and carapace bone can not be split apart which suggests they grow in tandem.
If the bone framework grows too slow it can not keep the carapace taut. If the carapace is kept too dry it will deform the bone framework is what I’m thinking.
Need a beer.