Do I need humidity if...

[Testudoresearch]

I was trying to say that the high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo. You took that to mean I said no humid hides for Testudo.
I hope I have straightened up the confusion

Not really, unfortunately.

I am still having a problem understanding exactly what is being said here - and what the difference is. I will try to break it down.

1. You say "high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo"

OK. So what level are you saying is appropriate?

2. You say that it is mistaken to interpret that as "no humid hides for Testudo".

OK. So what is the humidity level in these "humid hides"?

3. I am also confused by your use of the phrase "high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo".

I always understood the word "ambient" to mean pertaining to the immediate surroundings (from the Latin root 'ambiens' - to surround), so how does this NOT apply to a humid hide and how, therefore, am I misquoting you?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Re: RE: Do I need humidity if...

I was trying to say that the high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo. You took that to mean I said no humid hides for Testudo.
I hope I have straightened up the confusion

Not really, unfortunately.

I am still having a problem understanding exactly what is being said here - and what the difference is. I will try to break it down.

1. You say "high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo"

OK. So what level are you saying is appropriate?

2. You say that it is mistaken to interpret that as "no humid hides for Testudo".

OK. So what is the humidity level in these "humid hides"?

3. I am also confused by your use of the phrase "high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo".

I always understood the word "ambient" to mean pertaining to the immediate surroundings (from the Latin root 'ambiens' - to surround), so how does this NOT apply to a humid hide and how, therefore, am I misquoting you?

1. The high ambient humidity is an average of 80% throughout the entire indoor enclosure. And I do not recommend that for Testudo species.
I did not give a %RH recommendation for them since I don't raise them indoors. I don't know the appropriate level but I would never keep them and never advise anyone else keeps them in a chamber with humidity of 80% throughout the entire indoor enclosure.

2. A humid hide for the Testudo has seemed like a great idea. I haven't used one for them personally (since I don't house them indoors) but others have.
The difference is a "hide" with 80% humidity is just that. A humid hide. A single place with that level of humidity. The Testudo tortoise can leave the hide and find comfort in another area of the enclosure with a lower humidity level. My leopards can not leave the 80% RH minimum because the entire enclosure is that way.

3. There is the ambient humidity throughout the entire enclosure.
There is the ambient humidity within the humid hide itself.

Tracing this all the way back to that first post, I did not say the Testudo can't be housed with a humid hide. I said they shouldn't be housed in the same type of tank my Leopards are in. No where to go that has less than 80% humidity.
The entire enclosure being humid is not the same as a hide, a small area being humid.

So, there is no contradiction. Those of us that use "the hot and humid method" like I described some posts ago, would say it does not apply to the Testudo species.

Someone using a humid hide for their Russian or Greek does not qualify as using "the hot and humid method". Even if the hide has 45% or 80%+ humidity.

 

[Tom]

I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. The point I tried to make when answering the OP's question was that you can't replicate wild conditions in a small indoor habitat, so you have to improvise.

Improvising to get as close as reasonably possible is one thing. We have all struggled with that. You have to do the best you can.

Improvising to produce something totally different and "alien", however, is not the same thing at all. If I know a species uses a burrow in the wild that averages 36% RH..... I would aim to get as close to that figure as I could (within the limits of my facilities). I would not aim for, say, 76%....... or 90%... or 22%.

To me, that simply does not add up and makes no sense. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would do that.

80% humidity is not "alien" to wild sulcata hatchlings. Its quite the norm during the rainy season when they hatch. Obviously leopards will vary wildly with their individual location, but 80% humidity was not uncommon while I was there.

You have ignored MY main point several times: Attempting to simulate what our perception of wild conditions are for sulcatas and leopards DOES NOT WORK in our captive enclosures for indoor raised babies. We have a 20 year history of failure at it and you yourself have posted many of the photos to prove it. Conversely, the high humidity well hydrated methods DO work. THEY work ALL the time EVERY time. All of your comments about fast growth and poor diet and all these horrible things you claim will happen, are NOT happening and are misdirections from this fact. My tortoises grow however fast they grow. I am not bumping up protein or "power feeding" or attempting to grow them at any speed. I simply free feed them, as they would do in the wild during the rainy season, and they consume a diet of mostly grass, weeds, leaves, and succulents. My tortoises grow at the speed they do because they are healthy and hydrated, not because they are fed a high protein or artificial diet. For five months of every year, during OUR rainy season, I don't "feed" them at all. They just graze all day at will. I don't care how fast they grow, I care how healthy they grow, and they grow VERY healthy when they are well hydrated and fed a good diet.

The above does not make "sense" to you because you are talking about WILD tortoises in the WILD. I (we) are talking about CAPTIVE tortoises in a CAPTIVE setting. Why do you ignore the facts and observations of decades of captive keeping, because of what your thermometer and hygrometer read in a tortoise cubby hole in Europe? One thing has little to do with the other.

Regardless of what does or doesn't happen in the wild, only a fool would ignore what is actually happening right in front them on a daily basis. The methods that you propose have failed us for some species for decades. They might work for you in your area of the world for the species you work with, but they don't work here for the species that I have been working with for decades. I can show you pictures of sulcata tortoises that were fed lightly on natural foods with days regularly skipped, grown very "naturally" in outdoor enclosures with "moderate" humidity. They are stunted and pyramided. I can't even count the number of leopard and sulcata hatchlings that have died of dehydration because people followed information just like what you are trying to sell here. Even though your pictures are very pretty and your explanations SEEM logical to some readers, the fact is that harm will continue to be done to hatchling sulcatas and leopards if people follow your advice. There are contributing factors in the wild that are not known or understood. Using what we believe to be "natural" wild conditions are a good baseline to start with, but after two decades of failure to raise a "natural" looking, normally growing specimen, a person must realize that something we are doing is not working. We did realize this. The missing element was hydration and humidity. When this new info is applied correctly, we get good, healthy, natural looking growth. When we keep beating our heads against the wall by attempting to make these tortoises live in our incorrect assessment of the wild, they pyramid or die.

What part don't you get? I can back up what I am saying with hundreds of pictures of hundreds of tortoises. How many dry raised sulcatas and leopards can you show? Show us pictures of sulcata or leopard hatchlings that you have raised with a series of photos that show their progress as they grow. I have done this many times with the tortoises raised with adequate hydration. The pictures are all over this forum. Dozens of other people from all over this country and the world have duplicated my results. STOP IGNORING THIS FACT! I have also showed pics of my failures. My tortoises that were raised according to YOUR views of what is "natural". DRY DOES NOT WORK. I'd really appreciate if you stopped trying to convince people it does for these species.

 

[hunterk997]

Um... Sorry to disrupt this informative debate, but 45% humidity for a 2" hermann's is okay, is that agreed on? And adding a humid hide? I'm not seeing what's being debated. I thought everyone was in agreement earlier on in the thread.

 

[Tom]

Some people prefer to study what happens in the wild and then apply it to their captive environments.

Other people look at what happens in their captive environments and try to offer conditions that create a healthy tortoise with good smooth growth.

I have not yet raised hermanni from hatchlings myself yet, but I have seen plenty that were raised dry and are horribly pyramided. I have seen them raised with higher humidity and and they grow smoothly.

My suggestion for raising testudo, based on my experience with captive tortoises, is to offer a damp deep substrate, like coco coir, soak daily, offer a humid hide, and don't stress too much over the exact humidity percentage number. The damp substrate and humid hide will allow them to create their own little microclimates and help to keep them hydrated in our heated and air conditioned homes. This is how my russians are being raised, and its working fantastically. You can find many examples of this here on the forum.

 

[Yvonne G]

To me, that simply does not add up and makes no sense. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would do that.

We do it because in a captive situation, it works.

 

[hunterk997]

Some people prefer to study what happens in the wild and then apply it to their captive environments.

Other people look at what happens in their captive environments and try to offer conditions that create a healthy tortoise with good smooth growth.

I have not yet raised hermanni from hatchlings myself yet, but I have seen plenty that were raised dry and are horribly pyramided. I have seen them raised with higher humidity and and they grow smoothly.

My suggestion for raising testudo, based on my experience with captive tortoises, is to offer a damp deep substrate, like coco coir, soak daily, offer a humid hide, and don't stress too much over the exact humidity percentage number. The damp substrate and humid hide will allow them to create their own little microclimates and help to keep them hydrated in our heated and air conditioned homes. This is how my russians are being raised, and its working fantastically. You can find many examples of this here on the forum.

I think I get what you're saying. Keep the substrate damp, and the tortoise will be able to burrow allowing it more humidity. So I don't really have to "aim" for a specific humidity? Just keep damp substrate? Should I have the log hide (cool end) have less-moist substrate?

 

[Testudoresearch]

80% humidity is not "alien" to wild sulcata hatchlings. Its quite the norm during the rainy season when they hatch.

Show me some evidence to support your claims. Real data. Hard evidence. Figures, localities. Where is it? I am not asking for your wild guesswork, assumptions, or opinions. I am asking for your SOURCES for making these claims and then passing them on in advice as "fact". Not what "someone, somewhere told you", either, but adequately documented, reliable DATA. I say again, where is it?

We have a 20 year history of failure at it

No. You have a 20 year history of failure at it. Other people don't. A while back you said if someone could show you one picture of a well formed Leopard or Sulcata raised using what you call "the dry method" you would have something to learn from that person. Well, you saw such photos - yet appear not in the least willing to even admit the possibility that you might not know everything or have all the answers. You have systematically ignored every piece of evidence presented and continue to advance a system that until I explained it to you, you did not even have a clue as to how and why it had any effect... you just knew "that it worked". You still do not understand the full implications and consequences.

I am not in the least surprised that many people (including yourself) have repeatedly failed so badly if they share the view that diet, temperature and even UVB (!) are "minor" issues.

At a stroke you dismiss as "minor" everything 50 years of genuine, major advances in animal husbandry have achieved.

All of your comments about fast growth and poor diet and all these horrible things you claim will happen, are NOT happening and are misdirections from this fact. My tortoises grow however fast they grow. I am not bumping up protein or "power feeding" or attempting to grow them at any speed. I simply free feed them, as they would do in the wild during the rainy season, and they consume a diet of mostly grass, weeds, leaves, and succulents. My tortoises grow at the speed they do because they are healthy and hydrated, not because they are fed a high protein or artificial diet. For five months of every year, during OUR rainy season, I don't "feed" them at all. They just graze all day at will. I don't care how fast they grow, I care how healthy they grow, and they grow VERY healthy when they are well hydrated and fed a good diet.

May I point out earlier dismissed diet as being of "minor importance"....now you cite it as a factor in success?

The above does not make "sense" to you because you are talking about WILD tortoises in the WILD. I (we) are talking about CAPTIVE tortoises in a CAPTIVE setting. Why do you ignore the facts and observations of decades of captive keeping, because of what your thermometer and hygrometer read in a tortoise cubby hole in Europe? One thing has little to do with the other.

What is a "tortoise cubby hole" exactly? What precisely do you mean by this truly bizarre statement?

The methods that you propose have failed us for some species for decades. They might work for you in your area of the world for the species you work with, but they don't work here for the species that I have been working with for decades.

Failing who for decades? The fact is that other people have not been failing. Some have have been failing (yourself, by your own admission), but please - do not include everyone in that. Simply untrue and grossly misleading.

I can show you pictures of sulcata tortoises that were fed lightly on natural foods with days regularly skipped, grown very "naturally" in outdoor enclosures with "moderate" humidity. They are stunted and pyramided. I can't even count the number of leopard and sulcata hatchlings that have died of dehydration because people followed information just like what you are trying to sell here.

I am not trying to "sell" anything. I am attempting to inject a dose of reality based on verifiable, science-based evidence. It is not proving very easy.

Even though your pictures are very pretty and your explanations SEEM logical to some readers, the fact is that harm will continue to be done to hatchling sulcatas and leopards if people follow your advice.

Simply not true. Your personal opinion. Not fact. You frequently seem to confuse the two.

but after two decades of failure to raise a "natural" looking, normally growing specimen, a person must realize that something we are doing is not working

Your two decades of failure (again). Since I have had consistent success with all the species you mention, I have to wonder why you are so sure of your ground? This could be viewed as someone who has decades of failures behind them telling someone who has not what they are doing wrong!

STOP IGNORING THIS FACT! I have also showed pics of my failures. My tortoises that were raised according to YOUR views of what is "natural". DRY DOES NOT WORK. I'd really appreciate if you stopped trying to convince people it does for these species.

It does work. Not only have you seen photos - but the reasons WHY it works have been elucidated at considerable length.

I checked some of your older posts. It seems you were shown photos almost 4 years ago by a keeper in AZ who was achieving excellent results without recourse to your methods. You seem to have ignored that too, and have carried on denying it is possible. Good researchers do not ignore "inconvenient" evidence. They try to understand it.

I have not once disputed the fact that your methods produce a certain result. I also know why they produce that result. I also understand (precisely) how temperature affects things - right down to the molecular level.

If you were right, this would not be possible.

No high humidity treatment. No extended saturation. No constant super-high temperatures.

An impossibility? Really?

I remind you again that until a couple of days ago you could not even begin to explain the physiological processes involved in this. You had no real knowledge whatever of the biology and physiology of the condition. You had never even heard of keratin stresses. You knew nothing of the keratin-humidity linkage.

You still have no idea as to any possible long-term negative effects of subjective these animals to grossly excessive, constant levels of humidity and temperature. You only started doing this just over 3 years ago! That is nothing, and certainly no basis for dismissing every single piece of evidence that conflicts with your preconceived opinions.

 

[Yvonne G]

***Yvonne dons her moderator hat***

Please remember to keep this a civil discussion. It is a very educational thread and I'd hate to have to close it because the posters are becoming combative or abusive.

 

[Testudoresearch]

To me, that simply does not add up and makes no sense. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would do that.

We do it because in a captive situation, it works.

You have been doing things that you did not (and still do not) understand.

You saw some results, but had no idea why and how those results were happening. No credible explanation at all.

Try to understand what is really happening. I have explained it at length. If there is something factual wrong with my explanation, please do point that out.

Testudo species do not live on wet/damp substrates (except for brief periods after rain), and categorically do not require that in captivity. To suggest they do defies all logic and common sense. It is unreal.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Testudo,
I think many of us still don't quite understand what it is you DO do. We hear your voice on what you don't like but if you were advising a person new in the hobby that brought home their first sulcata, what would you tell them to do?

Also, I've been curious to ask for your thoughts on brumation. In light of the earlier subject on natural/captive conditions and which is optimal, do you advise brumation is only done outside in a natural burrow?
Many here use "hibernacles". A box of leaves tucked away in a closet or on the floor of the garage to brumate their torts safely away from floods or predators. Some use a fridge or empty freezer. What is your perspective? What do you practice with your tortoises?

---

I've seen a few members here who haved raised some smooth leopards.
One in AZ did share with me what he does but I don't remember the details.

Maybe you can start a fresh thread giving a general care sheet of your "how to". Something people can follow should they decide to try your method. I've seen a few posts since you joined of people wanting to ditch their heat bulbs and stop daily feeding. Maybe you writing out about your husbandry methods can help those that want to try it, understand more.

I for one would like to hear what you did with the sulcata and Leopard in greater detail. And should anyone decide to try raising them how you did, I'd be curious to follow along.

 

[Tom]

Show me some evidence to support your claims. Real data. Hard evidence. Figures, localities. Where is it? I am not asking for your wild guesswork, assumptions, or opinions. I am asking for your SOURCES for making these claims and then passing them on in advice as "fact". Not what "someone, somewhere told you", either, but adequately documented, reliable DATA. I say again, where is it?

Wild guess work? What's the matter? You don't like it when someone disagrees with you and has hundreds of examples to prove it? You can look up African weather in any number of places. I have, and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again because you are frustrated and demand it. My information comes directly from the mouth of my friend Tomas Diange, founder of the African Chelonian Institute. He was born and raised there. So yes, in addition to me looking it up on numerous weather sites, looking at posts from other people who looked it up on weather sites, I DID get my info from "someone, somewhere who told me..." I don't care if that meets your standard or not. Further, the high humidity that I claim exists in Africa for part of the year WORKS in practice here and everywhere else in the world, despite your claims that the sky is going to fall.

No. You have a 20 year history of failure at it. Other people don't.

Not true. You yourself have been posting pictures documenting exactly what I have been saying. There has been widespread failure all across this whole country for 20 years. I too have seen rare exceptions, but EVERY single time it could be traced back to humidity and hydration. One guy was a member here saying he uses dry substrate and lives in AZ. Upon further questioning in an attempt to learn, it turns out he uses a swamp cooler to cool his reptile room in the AZ heat. I have seen other examples of success from Hawaii, Florida, and Louisiana that were raised outdoors or exposed to the constantly high southern humidity. What I am referring to, specifically, is that every book, almost every vet, almost every breeder and almost every "expert" has for two decades recommend a dry substrate in a dry enclosure and infrequent soaks for hatchling sulcatas and leopards. If you have not noticed this, then you have not been looking. You put a sulcata or leopard, or any other species into one of these beef jerky maker style enclosures and it will not matter what you feed it or what the UV source is. It WILL pyramid. By contrast, if you put that same hatchling into the same tank with damp substrate, high humidity, a humid hide and a water bowl, soak it daily and feed it the same food, with the same UV, it will NOT pyramid.

It is irritating when people split hairs over semantics. You know/knew exactly what I meant. By the same token: Above you stated that "other people don't." have a 20 year history of failure. Okay, so I am the only one. So those pics you posted were of MY tortoises? I think not. How about if you don't nit pick an obvious statement, and I won't either.

A while back you said if someone could show you one picture of a well formed Leopard or Sulcata raised using what you call "the dry method" you would have something to learn from that person. Well, you saw such photos - yet appear not in the least willing to even admit the possibility that you might not know everything or have all the answers. You have systematically ignored every piece of evidence presented and continue to advance a system that until I explained it to you, you did not even have a clue as to how and why it had any effect... you just knew "that it worked". You still do not understand the full implications and consequences.

No I asked for a series of pics from hatching on to demonstrate what you say works. Not a single pic that could be from anywhere at any time. That picture of that leopard could be from the wild. It could be from anywhere and have been raised in any way. Some with your sulcata pic below. I have shown series of pics spanning years to demonstrate my principles. And I have fielded any and all questions concerning their care and specific parameters. I have shared what I've learned along the way.

I OPENLY said, and have said repeatedly in previous discussions, that I don't understand all that is going on or have all the answers. In what possible way is that not willing? I did not "systematically ignore every piece of evidence presented". I sat and watched while you eloquently explained and proved MY point. For years I have been posting that "pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry". Your posts on the other thread said exactly the same thing, but with much more explanation and colorful pictures to go along with it. YOU did a MUCH better job of explaining the principles and mechanisms involved. For that, I and many others, are grateful, but you still said the same thing I have been saying. If its too dry, they are gonna pyramid. We certainly have different views of how to apply this info, but we completely agree on the dryness principal.

Further, I don't have to understand the principals of rapid oxidation to know that fire is hot. When I put my own hand in a flame, its hot. Likewise when I raise a tortoise in a dry enclosure and see it pyramid. I don't have to know WHY it pyramided to know that it pyramided. When I raise another tortoise in the exact same enclosure, with the exact same temps, diet and routine, but add humidity, soaks and a humid hide, and THAT tortoise doesn't pyramid, I don't need to know WHY it didn't pyramid to understand that it has something to do with water... None of this means I don't want to know the WHYs of all this. It just means that I don't need to know all the WHYs to know if something works or doesn't work. You continue ignoring the obvious if you wish.

I am not in the least surprised that many people (including yourself) have repeatedly failed so badly if they share the view that diet, temperature and even UVB (!) are "minor" issues.

At a stroke you dismiss as "minor" everything 50 years of genuine, major advances in animal husbandry have achieved.

I dismiss these things as "minor" in regards to pyramiding because it has been demonstrated MANY times that they are MINOR. I can raise a smooth sulcata on grocery store greens, prepared foods, or even dog food. Temperatures can vary wildly, and UV can be provided or even largely skipped and I can still grow a smooth sulcata. I've have seen HUNDREDS of examples of this. Almost everyone on this forum is feeding their smooth growing sulcatas and leopards grocery store foods. Have you not looked around before made your statements? Are you saying they are NOT feeding grocery store foods, or are you saying their tortoises are not smooth? According to you, they can't grow smooth on an inappropriate diet. I say not true and have hundreds of examples to show it.

Now let's be clear about the difference between a HEALTHY tortoise inside and out, and a SMOOTH tortoise. I am not advocating poor diet, temps, calcium supplementation, or a lack of UV or exercise. In my opinion ALL of these things are needed to raise a smooth healthy tortoise. I am making the point that these other elements are not necessary for the prevention of pyramiding as a stand alone problem, and they aren't. There is overwhelming evidence to support this everywhere you look.

So I am not dismissing major advances in animal husbandry. I am a student and user of those advances. I am saying that the things I listed are a minor element of pyramiding prevention.

May I point out earlier dismissed diet as being of "minor importance"....now you cite it as a factor in success?

You may. And I will point out that your reading comprehension is suffering today. I dismissed those things as minor in their role of preventing pyramiding. In the above reference I cite them as a factor in raising a HEALTHY tortoise. These things can be unrelated and often are. My past tortoises were not unhealthy. They had a great diet, huge natural pens in the Southern California sunshine, great shelters, adequate temps whether indoors or out, but they were pyramided because I raised them too dry based on the expert advice of the day from people who knew all about the conditions that wild sulcatas experienced. Let us not confuse the health status of a tortoise with the pyramiding status of a tortoise. You yourself have posted pics of what you called healthy wild tortoises that had excellent bone formation and density yet still demonstrated pyramiding. I find it amusing that you jumped all over my admission of failure to raise a smooth tortoise for 20 years and immediately jumped to make it mean other things too. It demonstrates a bit about where you are coming from. Are you going to call my methods a "red herring" again? Or compare me to people who believe in space aliens? Will you then talk to Ed again and retract those statements... again.

What is a "tortoise cubby hole" exactly? What precisely do you mean by this truly bizarre statement?

Don't be petty. You know exactly what I am referring to.

Failing who for decades? The fact is that other people have not been failing. Some have have been failing (yourself, by your own admission), but please - do not include everyone in that. Simply untrue and grossly misleading.

Failing the vast majority of people who attempt the dry methods. Not UNTRUE or misleading in the least. The exceptions are very few and far between, and in fact the exceptions actually prove the rule, as I noted above. You ever look at Craig's list? Try finding a sulcata on Craig's list that ISN'T in a dry enclosure and pyramided. Try finding any past picture on this forum of a pyramided sulcata that was not started and raised on a dry substrate in a dry enclosure.

I am not trying to "sell" anything. I am attempting to inject a dose of reality based on verifiable, science-based evidence. It is not proving very easy.

You most certainly are, and you are a GREAT salesman! I am guilty too. We are both selling our ideas to the crowd and trying to get them to "buy" it. It is my sincere belief that we both have the best of intentions, but we differ in what we think is best. My evidence is also science-based and verifiable. I have dozens of LIVE pieces of evidence walking around. I have sent my evidence all over this country and you can follow their progress if you wish. I propose that I am sorely lacking in "wild" tortoise experience which is an area where you are one of the richest men alive. Color me jealous. I also contend, however, that YOU are lacking in experience of raising large numbers of sulcatas and leopards in indoor enclosures in normal heated and air conditioned homes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Simply not true. Your personal opinion. Not fact. You frequently seem to confuse the two.

Absolutely true! The evidence surrounds you. In your own pics, on your forum, on this forum, on kingsnake and fauna classified, on Craig's list, at every reptile show anywhere in the world. I'm not confused in any way. I have seen pyramided tortoise that were raised dry everywhere in the world I have ever been to. The confusion, it seems, is yours.

It does work. Not only have you seen photos - but the reasons WHY it works have been elucidated at considerable length.

I checked some of your older posts. It seems you were shown photos almost 4 years ago by a keeper in AZ who was achieving excellent results without recourse to your methods. You seem to have ignored that too, and have carried on denying it is possible. Good researchers do not ignore "inconvenient" evidence. They try to understand it.

Your reasons explained why it WON'T work. I don't understand how you don't get this. You went to great length to explain how the keratin is rigid and brittle when too dry and it malforms the underlying bone...

I'm so glad you referenced CGKeith's picture. I mentioned it above too. You are right, a good researcher doesn't dismiss "inconvenient" evidence and that is why I questioned him, trying to learn how he did it. Good researchers also shouldn't jump to conclusions without looking at ALL of the evidence presented. If you had read on a little further you would have seen that I did not dismiss this one unusual exception and I did attempt to understand it. That is where the man explained that he uses an evaporative cooler, a "swamp" cooler, in his reptile room. You don't think that bumps up humidity a bit? I don't think you are a bad researcher at this point, but this was certainly a gaff on your part. Read the whole story next time while you are scouring my old post trying to find info to use against me.

It seems to me that you cling to two or three exceptions to my assertions of the horrors of the dry routine, while IGNORING 1000's of examples of dry raised pyramided tortoises. It seems to me you are also repeatedly ignoring the 1000's of photos here on this site of smooth healthy tortoises raised with humid hydrated methods. This sure looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I will admit to sumarily dismissing your two photos because I cannot verify anything about them or their origin or how those tortoises were raised. Will you admit to summarily dismissing the 1000's of smooth healthy tortoise photos that I keep referencing? Why are you ignoring this HUGE mass of "inconvenient" evidence while accusing me of ignoring two or three photos? Have you heard of the psychological term projection? Hmm...

I have not once disputed the fact that your methods produce a certain result. I also know why they produce that result. I also understand (precisely) how temperature affects things - right down to the molecular level.

This assertion is debatable. I really don't feel like re-reading pages of text to find an example of where you DID dispute this, so I will concede on that point. However, I must add that while you might not have disputed this fact, you have certainly painted a grim picture about future health and shell infections and all sorts of made up stuff that simply DOES NOT happen when one uses the method that I promote.

I remind you again that until a couple of days ago you could not even begin to explain the physiological processes involved in this. You had no real knowledge whatever of the biology and physiology of the condition. You had never even heard of keratin stresses. You knew nothing of the keratin-humidity linkage.

This is also yet another untrue assumption. I have explained how the rigid dry keratin causes the underlying bone to malform in several past discussions and I have explained the link between humidity and keratin many times using the example human fingernails and how brittle they are in the desert, vs. how soft and pliable they are in a warm humid environment, like the South Eastern US. If you keep scrutinizing my old posts you will eventually come across these references. If it somehow benefits you to consider me an ignorant buffoon though, carry on. I give you full credit for an excellent explanation that is brilliantly worded, but no sir, you did not introduce the concept of the relationship of keratin and humidity to me. Remember that I have hundreds of living examples all around me too... I am familiar with most of what you shared with us the other day, but you have no equal when it comes to presentation. You did a FINE job.

You still have no idea as to any possible long-term negative effects of subjective these animals to grossly excessive, constant levels of humidity and temperature. You only started doing this just over 3 years ago! That is nothing, and certainly no basis for dismissing every single piece of evidence that conflicts with your preconceived opinions.

Okay. You FINALLY got me here! I cannot predict the future. I can, however, make a pretty good educated guess about what will happen based on 30+ years of chelonian experience. I'm pretty sure the sky is not going to fall and in a few more years these "wet" method tortoises will be of reproductive age and I will have my third generation of tortoises, with the last two being raised entirely under the wet routine parameters.

There are a few inaccuracies in this last paragraph of yours.

1. There is nothing "grossly excessive" about keeping sulcata babies in the same conditions that they experience upon hatching in the wild. Their obvious health, vigor, shell condition and growth, backs this up, but you go on ahead and keep ignoring thousands of examples that demonstrate this.
2. I started this in January of 2008, almost six years ago. Keep scrutinizing those old posts and look for mention of "Daisy". Here. I'll make it easy for you since you've stated several times how busy you are: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-56465.html
3. My opinions are NOT pre-conceived. They are based on facts, living animals, and 20+ years of observation and study. Further I have not dismissed any evidence that conflicts with my opinions or facts. All the evidence YOU presented supports my assertion that high humidity is necessary for smooth growth in sulcatas and leopards. You explained the processes and how they worked very well. I had a pretty good idea before you started, but now its even clearer. Thank you for that.


Whew!!! That was a long round, but I feel pretty good about my rebuttals. Your turn...



P.S. I am enjoying this discussion an would like to continue learning from you, but please, lets not make this personal. Your disdain for me is leaking into your typed words, and that always ends badly. I promise to keep it all above board and civil if you will. I hope to meet you one day and converse in person. In fact, if you are ever in Southern CA, I would like to invite you to my home to see first hand my "evidence" and assess for yourself the possibility of future unseen damage that you seem to believe is occurring. Several forum members have done so, and they did not walk away sharing the views you have expressed here. In fact they went home and did their own versions of my "experiments" and they have all produced similar positive results. In fact I would say some of them even got better results than me.

 

[Testudoresearch]

You yourself have posted pics of what you called healthy wild tortoises that had excellent bone formation and density yet still demonstrated pyramiding. I find it amusing that you jumped all over my admission of failure to raise a smooth tortoise for 20 years and immediately jumped to make it mean other things too. It demonstrates a bit about where you are coming from. Are you going to call my methods a "red herring" again? Or compare me to people who believe in space aliens? Will you then talk to Ed again and retract those statements...

I have not retracted anything. The "red herring" comment stands. You are not reading what I actually said with sufficient care. I was really precise about this. What I have been saying for years (and it is actually in print, in books, and can be verified by anyone) is that I disputed the claims being made that ambient humidity had any direct effect upon bone quality or formation and that no credible biological explanation for such a claim exists. It still does not exist, because the claim is flat-out wrong. The term "red herring" was a direct reference to the confusion I saw between a direct and indirect cause and effect relationship. I 100% stand by that.

What is a "tortoise cubby hole" exactly? What precisely do you mean by this truly bizarre statement?

Don't be petty. You know exactly what I am referring to.

I promise you I have absolutely no idea what on earth you mean. I have also lost interest in finding out.

I will admit to sumarily dismissing your two photos because I cannot verify anything about them or their origin or how those tortoises were raised. Will you admit to summarily dismissing the 1000's of smooth healthy tortoise photos that I keep referencing?

No - because I am not and never have disputed you are raising "pyramid free" animals using this method. Right at the start I said that your results are interesting and indeed, valuable. If you can find anywhere I said otherwise, please show me. I did not. Ever.

What I have consistently questioned is the physiology involved, the relationship of this method to conditions in nature, and the potential for serious side-effects.

That picture of that leopard could be from the wild. It could be from anywhere and have been raised in any way. Some with your sulcata pic below.

Tom, this debate with you is over. I have no interest in continuing it and will not respond at all to anything further you have to say (no matter how outrageous). I tell you this, I had some very lively, even heated debated with Ed Pirog over many years, but neither of us ever descended to to the point where we questioned each others integrity or raised the suggestion that we were "faking" results or that we would lie about our experiences. That is just unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. While I disagreed with Ed on many things, we would never accuse each other of misrepresenting our data, or of lying to the public. We did argue vehemently about the causes of the problems, and various interpretations and conclusions to be drawn from them... but suggestions of fabricating evidence or results? Never. It is a shameful suggestion on your part, and crosses a threshold at which I conclude any further attempt at a rational debate or continued communication is completely pointless.

Sorry.

If anyone else has any serious questions I will try to address them.

 

[FLINTUS]

Show me some evidence to support your claims. Real data. Hard evidence. Figures, localities. Where is it? I am not asking for your wild guesswork, assumptions, or opinions. I am asking for your SOURCES for making these claims and then passing them on in advice as "fact". Not what "someone, somewhere told you", either, but adequately documented, reliable DATA. I say again, where is it?

Wild guess work? What's the matter? You don't like it when someone disagrees with you and has hundreds of examples to prove it? You can look up African weather in any number of places. I have, and I'm not going to waste my time doing it again because you are frustrated and demand it. My information comes directly from the mouth of my friend Tomas Diange, founder of the African Chelonian Institute. He was born and raised there. So yes, in addition to me looking it up on numerous weather sites, looking at posts from other people who looked it up on weather sites, I DID get my info from "someone, somewhere who told me..." I don't care if that meets your standard or not. Further, the high humidity that I claim exists in Africa for part of the year WORKS in practice here and everywhere else in the world, despite your claims that the sky is going to fall.

I may be wrong here but isn't Tomas based in the more humid west African Rainforests-habitat of kinixys erosa, homeana etc.- rather than the more northern ranges Sulcatas would occupy.
There is no doubt high humidity exists in Africa, but Africa is a very big place!!!

 

[Tom]

I may be wrong here but isn't Tomas based in the more humid west African Rainforests-habitat of kinixys erosa, homeana etc.- rather than the more northern ranges Sulcatas would occupy.
There is no doubt high humidity exists in Africa, but Africa is a very big place!!!

He is based near Dakar which is near the coast. His study and relocation areas are further inland. He told me the name of the region, but it escapes me now. When I looked it up years ago, it was more toward the North eastern part of the country.

---

Tom, this debate with you is over. I have no interest in continuing it and will not respond at all to anything further you have to say (no matter how outrageous). I tell you this, I had some very lively, even heated debated with Ed Pirog over many years, but neither of us ever descended to to the point where we questioned each others integrity or raised the suggestion that we were "faking" results or that we would lie about our experiences. That is just unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. While I disagreed with Ed on many things, we would never accuse each other of misrepresenting our data, or of lying to the public. We did argue vehemently about the causes of the problems, and various interpretations and conclusions to be drawn from them... but suggestions of fabricating evidence or results? Never. It is a shameful suggestion on your part, and crosses a threshold at which I conclude any further attempt at a rational debate or continued communication is completely pointless.

Awwwe. Just when it was getting good too. Did I hurt your feelings? You are allowed to call me all sorts of names, decry my decades of study and observation as un-scientific and totally made up, paint me as a complete ignoramus, make wild claims of what is happening or might happen with 100's of success stories with NO evidence whatsoever, much less a single physical exam, and I'm to just sit back and take it? But when I ask you to elaborate on the history of a couple of random photos, the discussion is suddenly over?

That sir, is a total cop out.

No matter. I intended to start a new thread today, so as not to clutter these other members threads. Your points and assertions will be addressed there. It is my sincere hope that with the passage of some time you will get over the shock and horror of a perceived ignorant underling having the audacity to question your greatness and rejoin and contribute to the discussion.

 

[FLINTUS]

I may be wrong here but isn't Tomas based in the more humid west African Rainforests-habitat of kinixys erosa, homeana etc.- rather than the more northern ranges Sulcatas would occupy.
There is no doubt high humidity exists in Africa, but Africa is a very big place!!!

He is based near Dakar which is near the coast. His study and relocation areas are further inland. He told me the name of the region, but it escapes me now. When I looked it up years ago, it was more toward the North eastern part of the country.

---

---

Do you mean further inland in Senegal, or further inland in Africa? If the latter, that would mean erosa and homeana territory, definitely not where you'd find leopards I would guess!
If the former, then that would mean nogueyi territory, which is definitely moist savannah, but not soaking wet. Probably around 70% humidity during the rain, less at other times. It is classified as semi-arid.

 

[Tom]

Do you mean further inland in Senegal, or further inland in Africa? If the latter, that would mean erosa and homeana territory, definitely not where you'd find leopards I would guess!
If the former, then that would mean nogueyi territory, which is definitely moist savannah, but not soaking wet. Probably around 70% humidity during the rain, less at other times. It is classified as semi-arid.

If you look at the map in "The Crying Tortoise", it shows the areas of Senegal where sulcatas occur. This is the area that Tomas described the weather in. Sorry. Don't have the map in front of me.

---

Tom, this debate with you is over. I have no interest in continuing it and will not respond at all to anything further you have to say (no matter how outrageous). I tell you this, I had some very lively, even heated debated with Ed Pirog over many years, but neither of us ever descended to to the point where we questioned each others integrity or raised the suggestion that we were "faking" results or that we would lie about our experiences. That is just unacceptable. Completely unacceptable. While I disagreed with Ed on many things, we would never accuse each other of misrepresenting our data, or of lying to the public. We did argue vehemently about the causes of the problems, and various interpretations and conclusions to be drawn from them... but suggestions of fabricating evidence or results? Never. It is a shameful suggestion on your part, and crosses a threshold at which I conclude any further attempt at a rational debate or continued communication is completely pointless.

P.S. To my reply to this: No one ever questioned your integrity. I questioned your lovely photos. You posted pics of some nice looking tortoises, but offered no details about their age, whereabouts, housing, diet, temps, soaking routine, etc...

Further, I never said or implied you were "faking" anything. I asked for an explanation of the tortoises in those photos and their history.

Looks to me like you got backed into a corner with all my "inconvenient" evidence that contradicts your doom and gloom predictions, so you've jumped ship ASAP. Disappointing to say the least.

 

[hunterk997]

I must be doing well with humidity now, because my russian tortoise's enclosure has a humidity of 50% now. It will drop randomly to 45% sometimes, but makes it's way back to 50% again.

 

[nearpass]

Hi Hunter,

Bet you're sorry you asked right about now Russians are pretty tough. I think you'll be just fine. They're somewhat less sensitive to humidity fluctuations than a lot of other species. Good on you for hanging in, and persisting.