Do I need humidity if...

[hunterk997]

I will be getting a 2-3" hermann's tortoise from LLL Reptile this month, and I was told the tortoise will benefit from a humid hide. I made plans for a humid hide but I am wondering if I will need to keep the enclosure humid too? It's very difficult for me to keep the humidity up because my room is very warm, and I'm not allowed to use a humidifier (apparently it uses a lot of electricity). I can mist the substrate, and I will definitely pour and mix water in with the substrate weekly.

 

[Tom]

Here is what you need to do. Find someone who has raised them BOTH ways and ask them which way they liked better and which way produces what results.

 

[gtc]

I will be getting a 2-3" hermann's tortoise from LLL Reptile this month, and I was told the tortoise will benefit from a humid hide. I made plans for a humid hide but I am wondering if I will need to keep the enclosure humid too? It's very difficult for me to keep the humidity up because my room is very warm, and I'm not allowed to use a humidifier (apparently it uses a lot of electricity). I can mist the substrate, and I will definitely pour and mix water in with the substrate weekly.

Cover the top at least 2/3rds with plexiglass or aluminum foil. This will help keep the enclosure more humid without the need for constant misting. You should aim for 50-60% humidity. Even 70% at night is good.

 

[ascott]

Cover the top at least 2/3rds with plexiglass or aluminum foil. This will help keep the enclosure more humid without the need for constant misting. You should aim for 50-60% humidity. Even 70% at night is good.

Yup and if you are going to run high humidity in the entire enclosure then please do not EVER let the temps, day and night, drop below 80 degrees as this can result in an ailing tort...

If you run a warm humid hide/area in the enclosure and also offer a dryer warm and cooler area then the temps in the evening can vary a bit more...

 

[hunterk997]

My room temperature drops to 70 at night, and usually is 75 during the day. Is it absolutely necessary for humidity throughout? I was going to put a humid hide on the warm side of the enclosure, and a normal log hide on the cool end for a cool dry hide. Maybe I could put the foil in the enclosure, but keep the humidity at 40%? I don't think we have enough money to buy a heat emitter or something to keep the enclosure warm at night.

---

I read some past threads about this and I got more confused and worried. With a humid hide, will I need to keep it warm inside of it all of the time? And it will be extremely difficult for me to keep the entire enclosure humid even with a cover, without making the substrate really wet. I guess I never thought humidity was such a huge thing for mediterrannean tortoises. My Russian tortoise usually has a humidity of 20% (but that's according to the gauge-style hydrometer). I should probably try increasing that too?

 

[hunterk997]

If anyone could help or give advice it would be greatly appreciated!

 

[gtc]

My room temperature drops to 70 at night, and usually is 75 during the day. Is it absolutely necessary for humidity throughout? I was going to put a humid hide on the warm side of the enclosure, and a normal log hide on the cool end for a cool dry hide. Maybe I could put the foil in the enclosure, but keep the humidity at 40%? I don't think we have enough money to buy a heat emitter or something to keep the enclosure warm at night.

---

I read some past threads about this and I got more confused and worried. With a humid hide, will I need to keep it warm inside of it all of the time? And it will be extremely difficult for me to keep the entire enclosure humid even with a cover, without making the substrate really wet. I guess I never thought humidity was such a huge thing for mediterrannean tortoises. My Russian tortoise usually has a humidity of 20% (but that's according to the gauge-style hydrometer). I should probably try increasing that too?

---

By just putting plexiglass og foil over 2\3rds of the enclosure you should get about 50-60% humidity. At those levels you dont need to keep it any warmer than your current temps. Nothing wrong with adding a humid hide too.

 

[julietteq]

The past few days there has been a very educational thread been going on at http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263.html

From what I understood about it, it is the heatlamps that harden the shell and causes pyramiding. Having a very humid enclosure appears to "counteract" this effect by filtering out damaging rays from the heatlamps. That said....it is not correct to have them in high humidity either because it is not natural. It is a damned if you do and a damned if you do not situation. Please read the entire thread on page 5 in the thread there are tips about how to set up your enclosure.

Based on this thread I am thinking about how to make my enclosure more suitabel for my two leo's. You can see my current setup here
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84008.html

 

[Testudoresearch]

Having a very humid enclosure appears to "counteract" this effect by filtering out damaging rays from the heatlamps.

Just to set that straight from the technical angle, that is not the mechanism. I think you might be confusing the IR-A issue with the direct keratin hydration status issue.

It is true that moisture-laden air would (eventually) filter IR-A... but you'd need a few miles depth of it beneath the lamp before it had much effect! Unfortunately.

I can certainly confirm that none of the Testudo hermanni habitats I have personally studied over 30 years (Northern Spain, Southern France, Italy and Greece) have very high humidity microclimates available constantly. Normally, these exist only briefly after rain and tortoises are rarely found in anything resembling that.. The rest of the time these habitats are pretty dry. The 'scrape' microclimates I have measured during tortoise activity periods with both races of T. hermanni typically offer RH in the 35-60% range. An average would be around 45%.

Hope this helps.

 

[julietteq]

Having a very humid enclosure appears to "counteract" this effect by filtering out damaging rays from the heatlamps.

Just to set that straight from the technical angle, that is not the mechanism. I think you might be confusing the IR-A issue with the direct keratin hydration status issue.

It is true that moisture-laden air would (eventually) filter IR-A... but you'd need a few miles depth of it beneath the lamp before it had much effect! Unfortunately.

I can certainly confirm that none of the Testudo hermanni habitats I have personally studied over 30 years (Northern Spain, Southern France, Italy and Greece) have very high humidity microclimates available constantly. Normally, these exist only briefly after rain and tortoises are rarely found in anything resembling that.. The rest of the time these habitats are pretty dry. The 'scrape' microclimates I have measured during tortoise activity periods with both races of T. hermanni typically offer RH in the 35-60% range. An average would be around 45%.

Hope this helps.

It helps absolutely ! I really appreciate all the time and effort you put in. I tried ordering the food book, but it is sold out. Please let me know when your new book is out. I was a bit depressed over the thread, because I thought I did a really nice job for their winter enclosure. They appear to be happy (grazing a lot) and they are growing 1 gram a day structurally. Based on you suggestions I will change the lights, make it more rocky and I have stopped feeding them every day (although I have to figure out how many days I should feed them). Any other tips you can give me, please let me know !

 

[Yvonne G]

Please understand that a little aquarium or tort table is nowhere near conditions in the wild. You can't use what is said about humidity, substrate, etc. in the wild and apply it to your little aquarium. In captivity, in a tort table or aquarium, a humid hide works. A covering over the indoor habitat to hold in humidity works. It's as simple as that.

 

[hunterk997]

So I need an extremely humid hide, and I should still have humidity in the rest of the enclosure? And I was also wondering if the humid hide will need a CHE or something to keep it warm at night.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have my SA leopard baby in a wide open tort table. I pour water in a corner occasionally to keep the substrate moist under the top layer. I have a 10" PVC pipe cut in half lengthwise and it is stuffed with moist sphagnum moss. Under the substrate where the PVC rests, there is a seedling heat strip. The warmth from the strip works its way up through the substrate and keeps inside the PVC warm and humid. Since the baby spends most of his time inside this hide, I'm not worried about the openness of the rest of the tort table. I raised two of Tom's SA leopards this same way 3 years ago and they are perfectly smooth.

I realize that SA leopards are not the same tortoise as Hermann's, but I still think you need to have some humidity in the enclosure, even if it's just a humid hiding place.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Please understand that a little aquarium or tort table is nowhere near conditions in the wild. You can't use what is said about humidity, substrate, etc. in the wild and apply it to your little aquarium. In captivity, in a tort table or aquarium, a humid hide works. A covering over the indoor habitat to hold in humidity works. It's as simple as that.

I am afraid I do not follow the logic there.

You absolutely can use wild conditions as a sound basis for captive husbandry - indeed, it is by far the best reference there is. Other methods that contradict natural conditions bring other problems of their own (heat lamps, for example). When you use totally artificial rearing methods you are entering new and unknown territory. These methods have only been around a few short years and their long-term effects are not known. By long term I do not mean 10-15 years. That is nothing in the life of a long-lived organism like a tortoise. Humid hides do have problems - fungal and mold is one, keratin softening and degradation is another. Not everyone will see this, not every instance results in this - but it does happen and if it does the consequences can be very serious.

Those are keratin infections that resulted from inappropriate use of a humid hide.

 

[hunterk997]

Okay. So I am working on making my room humid (at least 45%) so that I won't need to cover the enclosure. I really like just sitting down and watching my russian and would like to do the same with the new tortoise. I am still confused on whether my humid hide needs to be warmed at night... I read the threads posted but I don't really understand some of it.

 

[Testudoresearch]

Testudo hermanni will be absolutely fine in the 45-50% ambient RH range, especially if you provide a nice deep substrate they can bury into. As for overnight temperatures, they get surprisingly cold at night in the wild on a regular basis, especially in early spring and late fall. You can certainly let them go down to 10C (50F) overnight without any problem at all (they go much lower than that in nature). I never provide any overnight heat for any of mine. Obviously, this may not apply if you have a completely unheated, unprotected room, in a very cold (sub-zero) location. Then some heat may well be required. They are very resilient tortoises. They need a well-ventilated, spacious accommodation. For indoors the 'tortoise table' system works well. As much outdoor time as possible should also be given, weather permitting. A secure outdoor pen, with unfiltered sunlight and as shade, with good graze and a well drained substrate will go a long way to producing a very healthy tortoise.

 

[Tom]

I am afraid I do not follow the logic there.

You absolutely can use wild conditions as a sound basis for captive husbandry - indeed, it is by far the best reference there is. Other methods that contradict natural conditions bring other problems of their own (heat lamps, for example). When you use totally artificial rearing methods you are entering new and unknown territory. These methods have only been around a few short years and their long-term effects are not known. By long term I do not mean 10-15 years. That is nothing in the life of a long-lived organism like a tortoise. Humid hides do have problems - fungal and mold is one, keratin softening and degradation is another. Not everyone will see this, not every instance results in this - but it does happen and if it does the consequences can be very serious.

I see the logic there perfectly.

It makes perfect sense to me to use a humid hide, damp substrate, etc., to offset the un-natural drying effects of our captive environments.

And in fact everyone I know that has attempted to mimic "natural" conditions for hatchling sulcatas and leopards has not had good results. Its especially bad for hatchlings. Countless numbers of babies have died due to dehydration complications because the people were of the mistaken notion that they needed dry enclosures and low humidity. I can't debate Testudo with you because I don't have enough experience raising them from hatchlings in multiple ways over many years. Sulcatas and leopards, on the other hand, are a different story.

In the past 5 years I have raised literally hundreds of tortoises in humid chambers with humid hides. Not a one of them shows anything like your pics. All of them have grown up healthy and smooth. No shell issues whatsoever. There are dozens of examples right here on this forum.

Just because a small percentage of tortoises are able to survive the rigors of the wild and reach breeding age is no reason to intentionally inflict less than optimal conditions upon them in our captive environments.

 

[hunterk997]

Thanks for all that info. It really helps. I am making out door enclosures next summer so my tortoises will be outside all summer so outside time will be easy. So the tortoise won't get sick if it were to sleep in the humid hide and the temps dropped to say, 70?

 

[nearpass]

You might be better served, and it would be easier in your situation, to get a cool mist room humidifier. I have several...one in the tort room, as well as one in my bedroom...helps me sleep much better in the winter! You can get them at Walmart for $35-40. It keeps my tort room, which is fairly small, at 45-50% humidity, which will be just fine for your torts. Misting the enclosure a couple of times a day and a nice deep substrate and you should be fine. Water always available, of course...my guys drink a lot! 70 degrees at night is more than fine for your guys...my temps drop lower than that when all the lights are off, and all animals are just fine...they need a significant overnight cooling. I have also switched my lighting to an incandescent bulb and strip florescent. This seems to give a more diffuse warmth and actual higher light level from the florescent tube. My little ones actually became more active when I made this change.

 

[hunterk997]

I have a humidifier, but my parents won't let me run it. They keep saying it uses too much electricity (I don't know how true that is). So I have a wet towel on my radiator. And a pot of water in my room. I don't know how well it will work.