Do tortoises know better?

[shehick]

@Tom - Are smaller, younger tortoises predisposed to having more complications from a fraction of a bite an adult would take or does the size of the bite balance itself because generally speaking the larger tortoise would take a bite just as proportionate to its body size.

 

[JoesMum]

@Tom - Are smaller, younger tortoises predisposed to having more complications from a fraction of a bite an adult would take or does the size of the bite balance itself because generally speaking the larger tortoise would take a bite just as proportionate to its body size.

I see two problems with smaller torts.

The first is their natural curiosity. Older torts are more likely to be set in their ways. They know what they consider to be food and flatly refuse to touch anything else even when we think it's better for them than what they are agreeing to eat.

Younger torts are growing fast and hungry and probably more like to sample stuff.

This leads to the second problem that you mentioned. As a proportion of their body size, the toxins will be greater in a very small tort and thus they are more like to overdose on them.

Think about common over the counter drugs like paracetamol. The dose is higher for an adult than for a child and too much can kill an adult or child. You wouldn't recommend it eaten as part of your diet, but taken occasionally it does no harm. (And I am NOT saying that these toxic plants might do good in small quantities in certain circumstances like paracetamol)

 

[shehick]

I simply won't put anything I can't ID and isn't grass in the enclosure until it can be properly identified. I just need to find where I can get more plantains because those seem to be in limited quantities around here where as there are more dandelions that I will ever need. Does everyone else agree I should be okay in the grass department? No scary nightshade grass or something crazy to be aware of?

 

[dmmj]

I am unaware of any toxic grasses

 

[DPtortiose]

I know a guy that just lost an adult Aldabra and an adult Galapagos to Jasmine. He also thought they would leave it alone, until the day they didn't. He found the Galop dead and then he spent thousands at the vet trying to save the Aldabra. I had to help the vet move the tortoise.

What kind of Jasmine did they eat? According to the tortoise table Jasmine is midly toxic at best, I'm suprised it would kill a large tortoise.

Don't know much about the wild diet of sulcata's, but wild Herman's tortoises are known to eat poisonous plants without apparent ill effect (Tamus communis and the Arum genus for example). It's been suggested to combat parasites by some researchers (Longpierre & Grenot (1999): Some effects of intestinal nematods on the plant foragig nehaivour of Testudo hermanni hermanni in the south of France - In: Miaud & Guyétant (Eds.): Current Studies in Herpetology, Societas Europaeara Herpetologica/Société Herpétologique de France, Le Bourget du Lac: 277-284)

An animals doesn't have to be native to the environment to have an idea which plants are poisonous. Most poisonous substances taste absolutely horrible, that's why animals have taste buds. To tell which plants contain these horrible tasting compounds. We've had animals from all over the world in our meadows and every single one of them 'knew' what plants where edible and which weren't. These animal never saw or tasted these plants and neither did their ancestors. Thankfully so, or we would have a lot sick animals around here.

There are of course exceptions! Some species are eaten readily eaten when can be very dangerous. It's often seen in horses that have access to nearby oak trees for example. So I'm probably somewhat between camps, I'm not overly worried that they'll poison themselves, but I don't like to tempt fate. So I remove the plants that I can, and trust the tortoise to leave the ones that I can't remove.

As a side note to Joesmum excelent post: toxicity is also determent by the plant itself, Young leaves can be more or less dangerous depending on the species. As far as I'm aware dried leaves are generally always more toxic compared to fresh ones. Especially toxic species mixed into hay is quite dangerous, we've had quite a issue with some nature conserver’s who were planting ragwort in grass fields. These fields where mowed and sold as haw to farmers and resulted in the deaths of dozens of horses and cows.

 

[WithLisa]

As far as I'm aware dried leaves are generally always more toxic compared to fresh ones. Especially toxic species mixed into hay is quite dangerous, we've had quite a issue with some nature conserver’s who were planting ragwort in grass fields. These fields where mowed and sold as haw to farmers and resulted in the deaths of dozens of horses and cows.

In most cases dried leaves are less toxic than fresh ones.
The problem is that some species (like ragwort) are still toxic but don't taste bad anymore, so horses and cows don't avoid them in the haw.
Eating ragwort a few times is not dangerous for them, but smaller doses every day can kill them.

 

[DPtortiose]

In most cases dried leaves are less toxic than fresh ones.
The problem is that some species (like ragwort) are still toxic but don't taste bad anymore, so horses and cows don't avoid them in the haw.
Eating ragwort a few times is not dangerous for them, but smaller doses every day can kill them.

I'm not completely sure dry leaves are actually less dangerous. For example the lethal dose of ragwort for a pony of 100 kilo is 4-8 kilograms of fresh ragwort, while a dose of dried leaves is lethal around 0.86 - 1.1 kilogram. You could argue that is about equal, since a large portion of the weight leaves consists out of water. But the 'lethal range' lies much closer together; the 'maximal lethal range' of fresh leaves is almost double of the minimal. While the dried minimal and 'maximal' doses lie a lot closer together. Besides it's arguable much more easy to consume a single kilo on accident then a six. On a side note: the lethal dose for a 'normal' horse (around 600 kilo) of dried leaves is about 5 to 6 kilo, which (depending on the horse) is a little below half of their daily intake of dried hay.

But I could very well be wrong and fresh leaves might very well be much more toxic. I'm not toxicologist and it’s not a field of study I’ve read a lot about on. In any case a very interesting point.

 

[Tom]

What kind of Jasmine did they eat? According to the tortoise table Jasmine is midly toxic at best, I'm suprised it would kill a large tortoise.

Don't know much about the wild diet of sulcata's, but wild Herman's tortoises are known to eat poisonous plants without apparent ill effect (Tamus communis and the Arum genus for example). It's been suggested to combat parasites by some researchers (Longpierre & Grenot (1999): Some effects of intestinal nematods on the plant foragig nehaivour of Testudo hermanni hermanni in the south of France - In: Miaud & Guyétant (Eds.): Current Studies in Herpetology, Societas Europaeara Herpetologica/Société Herpétologique de France, Le Bourget du Lac: 277-284)

An animals doesn't have to be native to the environment to have an idea which plants are poisonous. Most poisonous substances taste absolutely horrible, that's why animals have taste buds. To tell which plants contain these horrible tasting compounds. We've had animals from all over the world in our meadows and every single one of them 'knew' what plants where edible and which weren't. These animal never saw or tasted these plants and neither did their ancestors. Thankfully so, or we would have a lot sick animals around here.

There are of course exceptions! Some species are eaten readily eaten when can be very dangerous. It's often seen in horses that have access to nearby oak trees for example. So I'm probably somewhat between camps, I'm not overly worried that they'll poison themselves, but I don't like to tempt fate. So I remove the plants that I can, and trust the tortoise to leave the ones that I can't remove.

As a side note to Joesmum excelent post: toxicity is also determent by the plant itself, Young leaves can be more or less dangerous depending on the species. As far as I'm aware dried leaves are generally always more toxic compared to fresh ones. Especially toxic species mixed into hay is quite dangerous, we've had quite a issue with some nature conserver’s who were planting ragwort in grass fields. These fields where mowed and sold as haw to farmers and resulted in the deaths of dozens of horses and cows.

I didn't ask for the Latin name of the jasmine. I've read that jasmine is toxic and took the vets word for it. He's a reptiles and avian specialist and he performed the necropsy himself.

We also just recently had a bunch of horses die from tainted hay. They were trying to save some money, so they brought in a truck load. So far there are 6 dead horses and the hay was analyzed and found to have 6 different toxic weeds. Some of these horses were $50,000 cutting horses.

 

[Tom]

I'm not completely sure dry leaves are actually less dangerous. For example the lethal dose of ragwort for a pony of 100 kilo is 4-8 kilograms of fresh ragwort, while a dose of dried leaves is lethal around 0.86 - 1.1 kilogram. You could argue that is about equal, since a large portion of the weight leaves consists out of water. But the 'lethal range' lies much closer together; the 'maximal lethal range' of fresh leaves is almost double of the minimal. While the dried minimal and 'maximal' doses lie a lot closer together. Besides it's arguable much more easy to consume a single kilo on accident then a six. On a side note: the lethal dose for a 'normal' horse (around 600 kilo) of dried leaves is about 5 to 6 kilo, which (depending on the horse) is a little below half of their daily intake of dried hay.

But I could very well be wrong and fresh leaves might very well be much more toxic. I'm not toxicologist and it’s not a field of study I’ve read a lot about on. In any case a very interesting point.

I the case of dried leaves being more toxic, it does vary by species. Roach keepers routinely feed dried oak leaves of many species to their roach colonies, while we all know that fresh green leaves are toxic.

 

[dmmj]

I the case of dried leaves being more toxic, it does vary by species. Roach keepers routinely feed dried oak leaves of many species to their roach colonies, while we all know that fresh green leaves are toxic.

but can't roaches eat practically anything?

 

[shehick]

I think the point there was the roaches are feeder insects to reptiles, especially if someone has colonies.

 

[dmmj]

I think the point there was the roaches are feeder insects to reptiles, especially if someone has colonies.

yes well that is something I would worry about as well passing along that toxicity through the road to the animal

 

[Lyn W]

You don't have to be overwhelmed. You don't need to know it all before you get your animal. Three weeds is a great start.

I agree. I was only really confident with IDing dandies, plantains and clover to start with and I have just gradually added others as I've learnt to recognise them. When these are in short supply or not available during winter he has to have a variety store bought veg sprinkled with dried grass called 'Readigrass' which I grind up in a blender.
It can be easier to remember what they shouldn't have.
You can buy seed packs for tortoise food online if you want to grow your own to be safe.

 

[Tom]

but can't roaches eat practically anything?

They are detrivores, but they are subject to the same rules of toxicity of every other insect and living thing. Some species are actually quite sensitive.

 

[JoesMum]

Some species are actually quite sensitive.

* Tries and fails to imagine a sensitive roach *
I didn't know they were so easily offended

I'd better go now...

 

[dmmj]

* Tries and fails to imagine a sensitive roach *
I didn't know they were so easily offended

I'd better go now...

you're encroaching into my territory now

 

[Tom]

* Tries and fails to imagine a sensitive roach *
I didn't know they were so easily offended

I'd better go now...

HA! That's pretty funny.

But when you pay $5 per 2nd instar baby and they drop dead on you, then you can really get a feel for what a "sensitive roach" is. It really hurts your wallet…

 

[Prairie Mom]

I simply won't put anything I can't ID and isn't grass in the enclosure until it can be properly identified. I just need to find where I can get more plantains because those seem to be in limited quantities around here where as there are more dandelions that I will ever need. Does everyone else agree I should be okay in the grass department? No scary nightshade grass or something crazy to be aware of?

You can order plantain seeds from Amazon.com. Just enter "Plantain weed seeds" into their search engine. I've ordered quite a few random weeds from sellers on Amazon (chicory, mallow, dandelions, clovers, etc). There are a few good cold tolerant flowering plants that are worth checking out also. Here's a post I made that might give you some ideas for other cold tolerant perennials and annuals that may be worth adding to your enclosure: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...pics-of-annuals-cold-hardy-perennials.110773/ Also, I agree with Dmmj. I too am unaware of tort-toxic grasses. Go for it.

 

[shehick]

I will look into that, thanks! There is also the issue that I live in an apartment but I have been considering lining most if not all of my window sills with planters.... My only concern is the dog jumping up to look out the window and bringing everything back down with her.... Worth the risk IMO lol

 

[Prairie Mom]

I will look into that, thanks! There is also the issue that I live in an apartment but I have been considering lining most if not all of my window sills with planters.... My only concern is the dog jumping up to look out the window and bringing everything back down with her.... Worth the risk IMO lol

You can grow quite a bit indoors. If you're not going to use grow lights, then I would recommend looking for stuff that tolerates shade or part sun for the window sills. Hostas and Begonias are good shade tolerant tortoise food, but grow slower than most weeds and grasses. Shade lawn grass seeds can be grown indoors as well as wheat and barley grass seeds, which I've also ordered on Amazon. Snap dragons tolerate part sun. There's lots out there if you look for it.