Dot may be ill...

[UnicornSploosh]

Okay, so my little morse code twins have been doing really well since I changed their tank setup. They eat all kinds of different grasses that grow in their cage. I've had to re-seed it already. Things have been going great.

Until today. I noticed they were really inactive today. I thought maybe the rainy weather had made them lazier than normal (my other reptiles are rather blah today too). But, when I pulled them out to soak them I noticed that Dot's shell is really soft on the bottom. Squishy almost. I have no clue what this means and am considering taking him to the vet. Any ideas?

 

[Tom]

Babies?
Where did you get them and how were they started as hatchlings?
Did the breeder soak them daily?
Did the breeder keep them on damp substrate with a humid hide?
How old are they?
Are you using indoor UV? What type?

Read this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
After reading it, see if you can eliminate it as a possibility.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

I got them from a pet store back in Feburary. They're between seven and eight months old. I use a zoomed powersun for basking and a CHE at night for heating. I can't eliminate that as a possibility however, they've been fairly well taken care of since we got them. I posted recently on here about all the changes we made to their enclosure and soaking after joining this forum. Things have been going well. The shell issues Dot was starting to have almost fully reversed and he(she?) has caught up in size to their hatchling. They have a humid hide now along with a soaking area in their enclosure plus a water dish. I know their eating and hydrate because Dot pooped on me while drying him after their soak and Dash peed on me.

It's just this soft shell. I called the vet and the reptile vet won't be in until Thursday.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/im-so-thrilled.125347/#post-1167648 - this is the thread that shows their enclosure.

 

[wellington]

Are you sure Dot is being allowed to bask under the UVB? Have you gotten them outside for some natural sun? I would do that and just make sure they have water and shade while out.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

They do go outside but haven't lately because of really smokey conditions from the fires burning around us. Today it is raining. Should I take them out in the rain? Is that okay?

 

[wellington]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/im-so-thrilled.125347/#post-1167648 - this is the thread that shows their enclosure.

I would not have that small of stones in with them. They could cause impactions if swallowed. It may be time to separate them, if Dot is not getting any UVB time. Signs of bullying can be very slight. Like one not getting to bask. Always in a corner, always walking away from the other, etc.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

But yes, they both like to "cuddle" everywhere. There's no aggression between them at all yet. We do keep an eye out for that in case they need to be separated.

 

[wellington]

They do go outside but haven't lately because of really smokey conditions from the fires burning around us. Today it is raining. Should I take them out in the rain? Is that okay?

I would. It take them out in the rain unless it was really warm out. A cold wet tortoise is a sick one.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

Okay so, we took Dot to the vet. I feel that was pretty well useless as they were trying to convince me they don't need to be soaked more than once a week, dry humid conditions, from the hottest part of Africa... You know the drill.

She did say she thinks it's metabolic bone disease and that his shell is way too thin. He's lost a ton of weight. He's sitting at 38.5g but it's obviously still eating a ton because he pooped all over everything at the vet's. This is after popping on me and on my boyfriend in the car. Normal poopage too. She said that looked good.

My big question is now what? I feel like I've failed big time here.

 

[wellington]

get them outside daily. Give pinch of calcium on food. Keep up the soakings, be sure there is water to drink and shade when outside and find a new vet before going back to this one.
Good luck. Maybe @Yvonne G or @Tom can help with more things to do.

 

[Tom]

Okay so, we took Dot to the vet. I feel that was pretty well useless as they were trying to convince me they don't need to be soaked more than once a week, dry humid conditions, from the hottest part of Africa... You know the drill.

She did say she thinks it's metabolic bone disease and that his shell is way too thin. He's lost a ton of weight. He's sitting at 38.5g but it's obviously still eating a ton because he pooped all over everything at the vet's. This is after popping on me and on my boyfriend in the car. Normal poopage too. She said that looked good.

My big question is now what? I feel like I've failed big time here.

My best guess: You have not failed. The breeder failed. The new keeper (you) cannot undo the damage that the breeder did by chronically dehydrating these babies, if that is in fact what went on. The breeder probably got his advice on how to start babies (hot and dry) from the same vet or from some other similarly incorrect source.

On another note, your vet needs to be educated. They are giving people bad, outdated, incorrect info that is based on decades old incorrect assumptions, and this info will harm the animals they are supposed to be helping. Invite your vet to come here, or tell them I would be happy to explain in a phone call, but they need to be brought up to speed one way or another.

If this is a case of breeder failure syndrome, nothing you do, and no amount of money spent at a vet office will save this baby. If the kidneys are too damaged from what happened in those first few weeks, then no one can "fix" it.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

My best guess: You have not failed. The breeder failed. The new keeper (you) cannot undo the damage that the breeder did by chronically dehydrating these babies, if that is in fact what went on. The breeder probably got his advice on how to start babies (hot and dry) from the same vet or from some other similarly incorrect source.

On another note, your vet needs to be educated. They are giving people bad, outdated, incorrect info that is based on decades old incorrect assumptions, and this info will harm the animals they are supposed to be helping. Invite your vet to come here, or tell them I would be happy to explain in a phone call, but they need to be brought up to speed one way or another.

If this is a case of breeder failure syndrome, nothing you do, and no amount of money spent at a vet office will save this baby. If the kidneys are too damaged from what happened in those first few weeks, then no one can "fix" it.

I stopped her and explained a lot to her. She finally said I probably knew more than her and to continue doing what I was doing but with more calcium basically.

I really hope you're not right. That would make two I've lost now and I'm not sure if I'd continue trying. I'm really attached to these two and pretty torn up about how sick Dot is. I just wish I'd found this forum prior to getting my little ones so I would have known better.

It's so frustrating to think that there's nothing I can do but hope.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

But also, thank you. I appreciate you honesty and candor, along with the advice.

 

[Yvonne G]

But yes, they both like to "cuddle" everywhere. There's no aggression between them at all yet. We do keep an eye out for that in case they need to be separated.

What you're seeing as cuddling, is actually a form of aggression. The more aggressive tortoise is telling the more passive tortoise that he wants that spot. Try to not put human feeling onto these guys. They don't think like we do. They want to be alone and have no use for other tortoises in their space. I'd be willing to bet this plays a very large part in your sick baby's health.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

By cuddling I just mean they're always close to each other. When I took Dot to the vet the first thing that happened when we got home was he ran over to Dash and they fell asleep together. And by together I mean nose to nose with about half an inch between them. I see both under the lamp, both in the food dish, both in the humid hide, both in the water - together and apart. If anything, Dot is more of the bully because he'll fall asleep in the food dish and make Dash pull bits out around him. But, that is about as aggressive as I've seen and I really have been watching because of all the things mentioned on here about it.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

By cuddling I just mean they're always close to each other. When I took Dot to the vet the first thing that happened when we got home was he ran over to Dash and they fell asleep together. And by together I mean nose to nose with about half an inch between them. I see both under the lamp, both in the food dish, both in the humid hide, both in the water - together and apart. If anything, Dot is more of the bully because he'll fall asleep in the food dish and make Dash pull bits out around him. But, that is about as aggressive as I've seen and I really have been watching because of all the things mentioned on here about it.

I agree with Yvonne. There is no cuddling in a tortoises life. It starts out very subtle sometimes...............
Best of luck with your babies. They would very likely do better apart, though. (IMO)

 

[Tom]

And by together I mean nose to nose with about half an inch between them.

THIS is tortoise aggression. All this proximity and following is the tortoise equivalent of "mad-dogging". It is an intimidation tactic. They crowd each other as if to say, "Hey! I'm right here in your face! Get out of my territory because I'll never stop harassing you."

Tortoises should not be housed in pairs and this added stress is not helping them.

 

[Tom]

That would make two I've lost now and I'm not sure if I'd continue trying.

By this do you mean you'd quit tortoise keeping? I hope not. Your only mistake has been to buy from someone else who made a mistake. It is hard to find a breeder who starts them correctly because people still cling to the old incorrect notions like what your vet was telling you. I hope we can help you, and I hope you'll stick around. If you ever decide to try again we can help you find healthy babies that don't have these disadvantages to overcome. You'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy and fun it can be.

 

[UnicornSploosh]

THIS is tortoise aggression. All this proximity and following is the tortoise equivalent of "mad-dogging". It is an intimidation tactic. They crowd each other as if to say, "Hey! I'm right here in your face! Get out of my territory because I'll never stop harassing you."

Tortoises should not be housed in pairs and this added stress is not helping them.

Even when they're asleep? I mean, I could be wrong but they looked pretty relaxed and unconscious.