enema help

[Tom]

Lets back track a bit...

Are you using a cfl type coil bulb for UV? This looks like a tortoise with burned eyes to me.

What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area, and overnight low? What equipment are you using to achieve these temps?

Maybe we can look at this from the perspective of "How did we get here?" It is just not common for older sulcatas like this to get sick.

Has he ever lived with other species? Was he ever living as one half of a pair?

If he is not sand impacted now, he soon will be. I would strongly suggest a different substrate.

 

[Tom]

Also, I wanted to let you know that Deadhead vet who posted above is an actual practicing reptile and tortoise veterinarian, and a good one at that. All of us have experience with caring for sulcatas, but he is the only medical professional that has commented so far. I just wanted you to have that info so you can weigh the advice given thus far.

 

[noallawshe]

Tube placed

 

[noallawshe]

No lights, i live in Florida and he's outside. His eyes are closed in photos.he does not eat sand, this is his porch / overnight box.

 

[Tom]

No lights, i live in Florida and he's outside. His eyes are closed in photos.he does not eat sand, this is his porch / overnight box.

Is there a heat source in his overnight box?

 

[noallawshe]

Is there a heat source in his overnight box?

Only if it drops below 60 at night

 

[noallawshe]

He has been thriving untill recently. I believe he ate recently mowed yard clippings ghat bound him up.

 

[Tom]

Mine eat yard clippings all summer long. Just fed out a whole trash bag worth today, in fact. That should not bind him up.

I think anything below 75 in your level of humidity is risky. Even though they can survive temps in the low 60s, its not "good" for them. I would not let a sick one drop below 85 day or night. Smaller ones, like yours are particularly sensitive to low temps. I think you need to set your night heat on a thermostat and keep this guy warmer.

Here are some examples:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/#post-1205002

Cold night temps in a humid climate might be the cause of your issue.

I read what you said about the sand, but they don't have to intentionally ingest large mouthfuls of the stuff for it to be a problem. Over time it sticks to their food in very small amounts and it builds up in their gut. I once necropsied a baby that I got form a breeder that was failing to thrive and we found the entire intestinal tract lined with broken down perlite, which is the incubation media the breeder had used. Sand could be lining your guys GI tract and causing this issue while not showing up as a solid mass on x-ray.

This is all speculation. I'm just guessing based on my past experience with cases I've seen at my vet friends places and from what I know of my years of keeping this species in a variety of ways.

 

[noallawshe]

I find it strange that nothing has changed over that past 5 years and now it would be his environment. The only thing different was he was put in the yard immediately after the wet grass was cut

 

[noallawshe]

But anything is possible.

 

[Yvonne G]

Grass starts to ferment/mold quite quickly when cut and allowed to lay in piles. Maybe he got ahold of some mold??????

 

[Tom]

I find it strange that nothing has changed over that past 5 years and now it would be his environment. The only thing different was he was put in the yard immediately after the wet grass was cut

Is it possible there was some toxic weed of some sort in there? When they graze themselves, mine will eat around any weed they don't like. When the grass and weeds are all mulched up together, they eat it all up by the mouthful with no regard for what it is. I frequently mix my grass clippings with other weeds and leaves and they would eat oleander if I put it in that mix. (Of course I never would…) Maybe something toxic got into the mix some how? Leaves from a nearby tree or bush maybe?

 

[Tom]

I'm no radiology expert, but I went back and looked at those X-rays again and I do see a lot go grainy-ness in the GI tract.

@deadheadvet , May I ask for your expertise here again? What do you see in the x-rays? Is sand build up a possibility, or would that be much more obvious?

 

[noallawshe]

I'm no radiology expert, but I went back and looked at those X-rays again and I do see a lot go grainy-ness in the GI tract.

@deadheadvet , May I ask for your expertise here again? What do you see in the x-rays? Is sand build up a possibility, or would that be much more obvious?

Radiology report:
s is your consultation report regarding Case #

Exotic Radiographs

HISTORY: Exotic Radiographs Only
has not eaten in 5 day, lethargic. no nasal discharge, no bm in over 1 week may have urinated last Saturday.
normally eat romain, timothy hay, grazes in back yard, occ fruit and vegtables

______________________________________________________________________
WHOLE BODY, OCTOBER 8, 2015, 8 views

FINDINGS: Submitted in this study are dorsoventral and lateral radiographs of a male tortoise of unknown species. Positioning and technique are fair.

The skeletal structures in this study are normal in appearance and bone mineralization is appropriate. Body condition appears good based on coelomic mass and the musculature of the limbs.

There is a large amount of formed fecal material and gas within the gastrointestinal tract. There are no apparent gastrointestinal obstructions or foreign bodies. The other coelomic structures are unremarkable in appearance.

CONCLUSIONS: Constipation of unknown etiology. Occasionally when smaller tortoises are fed uncut hay the long strands can cause obstructive conditions and cause problems, though there are many other potential causes of constipation in tortoise including both primary nutritional and gastrointestinal disease as well as secondary to systemic disease or problems that cause stress, pain, etc.

RECOMMENDATIONS: Aggressive laxative and enema therapy to clear the GI tract is recommended. Rides in the car or other stimuli that creates vibration can help the tortoise to evacuate its bowel as well.

 

[ascott]

Radiology report:
s is your consultation report regarding Case #

Exotic Radiographs

HISTORY: Exotic Radiographs Only
has not eaten in 5 day, lethargic. no nasal discharge, no bm in over 1 week may have urinated last Saturday.
normally eat romain, timothy hay, grazes in back yard, occ fruit and vegtables

______________________________________________________________________
WHOLE BODY, OCTOBER 8, 2015, 8 views

FINDINGS: Submitted in this study are dorsoventral and lateral radiographs of a male tortoise of unknown species. Positioning and technique are fair.

The skeletal structures in this study are normal in appearance and bone mineralization is appropriate. Body condition appears good based on coelomic mass and the musculature of the limbs.

There is a large amount of formed fecal material and gas within the gastrointestinal tract. There are no apparent gastrointestinal obstructions or foreign bodies. The other coelomic structures are unremarkable in appearance.

CONCLUSIONS: Constipation of unknown etiology. Occasionally when smaller tortoises are fed uncut hay the long strands can cause obstructive conditions and cause problems, though there are many other potential causes of constipation in tortoise including both primary nutritional and gastrointestinal disease as well as secondary to systemic disease or problems that cause stress, pain, etc.

RECOMMENDATIONS: Aggressive laxative and enema therapy to clear the GI tract is recommended. Rides in the car or other stimuli that creates vibration can help the tortoise to evacuate its bowel as well.

So, without offending you on purpose....the conclusion is like a long list of what it could be and not a diagnosis at all....xrays are but one way to try to determine what is going on and I know that they are not a sure fire pic to offer exact diagnosis...but I would strongly suggest that this tort be placed in a controlled environment so that your temps can be one hundred percent controlled, there be absolutely no sand within that space and begin long long warm water soaks that last for at least 30-45 minutes a couple of times a day....sand is a funny thing (not like haha funny), it can settle in the digestive track in a bad way...it can slowly build up on itself and then it is hard to get moving out of the system....when was the last time you picked up the tort and really felt its weight....does the tortoise feel heavy and solid like a bunch of bricks or is the weight a little fluffy light in relation to his overall size?

 

[ascott]

This is all he does now.

View attachment 151669 View attachment 151670

Also, when I look at these two pics, this tort appears to have a bit of loose skin around the leg areas for being a younger tort and that loose skin should be full of plumb muscle...again, just my observation..

 

[kathyth]

If he has an exotic vet that feels he needs an enema, I would have the vet do it under sedation. I would not treat my own tortoises with an enema. I'm don't know exactly how.
Your tortoise does look sick.
I hope that somehow he gets better!

 

[noallawshe]

So, without offending you on purpose....the conclusion is like a long list of what it could be and not a diagnosis at all....xrays are but one way to try to determine what is going on and I know that they are not a sure fire pic to offer exact diagnosis...but I would strongly suggest that this tort be placed in a controlled environment so that your temps can be one hundred percent controlled, there be absolutely no sand within that space and begin long long warm water soaks that last for at least 30-45 minutes a couple of times a day....sand is a funny thing (not like haha funny), it can settle in the digestive track in a bad way...it can slowly build up on itself and then it is hard to get moving out of the system....when was the last time you picked up the tort and really felt its weight....does the tortoise feel heavy and solid like a bunch of bricks or is the weight a little fluffy light in relation to his overall size?

He has been receiving long warm soaks daily for the past 10ish days. I pick him up every day and i thought he would weigh more than he does, 5.8lbs.

 

[noallawshe]

If he has an exotic vet that feels he needs an enema, I would have the vet do it under sedation. I would not treat my own tortoises with an enema. I'm don't know exactly how.
Your tortoise does look sick.
I hope that somehow he gets better!
View attachment 151771

I sm currently in contact with an tortoise vet and i have been a veterinary nurse for 25yrs.

 

[Tom]

He has been receiving long warm soaks daily for the past 10ish days. I pick him up every day and i thought he would weigh more than he does, 5.8lbs.

Pics can be deceiving. What is his length? When I measure this, I put a tape measure or yard stick against a wall, then put the tortoises front right up against the same with with their head tucked in, and then I look straight down past the back of the carapace at my tape measure.

Knowing the length will allow me to compare weight to similar sized ones in my group and this might offer a clue.