Man, I wish I had the time to read all this and post my thoughts.... but if I had more time to spare I would rather be taking care of my tortoises. 
Fast Foreward Pyramid Conversation 2020 or 2030
- Thread starter onarock
- Start date
- Status
Rebekah, no actually I don't see you as an ostracizer (maybe a frustrater, but that's something else and far better ), look elsewhere in this thread and others for the ostracizing. Its kind of sad really, negativity has become so commonplace on here that it slips by, totally missed to the observers. Usually the targets aren't so lucky and are not spared the sting. At least its not downright vulgar such as in other forums.
Let me see if I can word this so as not to sound like an attack (which I assure you is NOT my intention)
It seems to me like you over-polarize the arguments (just like Ona might be doing to some degree). My suggestion that the theory proposed by another dealing with "artificially smoothed shells hiding mbd", reads as "smooth shells brought about by hydration, means MBD".
I tend to think Andy Highfield lets his biases color his research, BUT if he is correct, a tortoise that is properly cared for with "correct" environmental variables, nutrition, etc etc will not pyramid, even without a "swamp" treatment. (trouble is, we cannot agree on any of those things, by giving the tort the swamp treatment we ensure adequate humidity and hydration). He has pointed out that the keratin becomes so pliant at super high humidities (levels he doesn't believe exist in nature) that it could be "covering up" the true cause of the problem.
Now, knowing that Tom gives his torts the "total care package" I'd be very surprised if his come back with any MBD on those X-Rays.
Someone else could possibly be taking rotten care of their torts, but be keeping them super hydrated, and they will likely grow out smooth, looks all great and healthy, but internally be in sad shape.
What it all boils down to is this, I think my bro Ona is overconcerned, I seriously doubt there will be long term negative effects from Tom's methods. I'm sure glad he brought it up though, so I could think about it.
), look elsewhere in this thread and others for the ostracizing. Its kind of sad really, negativity has become so commonplace on here that it slips by, totally missed to the observers. Usually the targets aren't so lucky and are not spared the sting. At least its not downright vulgar such as in other forums.Let me see if I can word this so as not to sound like an attack (which I assure you is NOT my intention)
It seems to me like you over-polarize the arguments (just like Ona might be doing to some degree). My suggestion that the theory proposed by another dealing with "artificially smoothed shells hiding mbd", reads as "smooth shells brought about by hydration, means MBD".
I tend to think Andy Highfield lets his biases color his research, BUT if he is correct, a tortoise that is properly cared for with "correct" environmental variables, nutrition, etc etc will not pyramid, even without a "swamp" treatment. (trouble is, we cannot agree on any of those things, by giving the tort the swamp treatment we ensure adequate humidity and hydration). He has pointed out that the keratin becomes so pliant at super high humidities (levels he doesn't believe exist in nature) that it could be "covering up" the true cause of the problem.
Now, knowing that Tom gives his torts the "total care package" I'd be very surprised if his come back with any MBD on those X-Rays.
Someone else could possibly be taking rotten care of their torts, but be keeping them super hydrated, and they will likely grow out smooth, looks all great and healthy, but internally be in sad shape.
What it all boils down to is this, I think my bro Ona is overconcerned, I seriously doubt there will be long term negative effects from Tom's methods. I'm sure glad he brought it up though, so I could think about it.
you know i think this thread got way out of hand,i think because of some of rocks wording people thought he was attacking the idea and tom and rallied too tom's defense.the point being made was missed.the man was asking a simple question,what if were wrong?people don't like too be wrong and some won't even entertain the idea of it.tom is well aware of what he is doing he knows of any risks and is prepared too deal with them,is everyone else?tom doesn't need too defend him self his threads and posts speak for them selves.so maybe some out there should drop the defensiveness take an openminded step back and really ponder,what if your wrong?and thats all i have too say on this subject peace out
Balboa said:
Me too.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2010
- Messages
- 903
thanks for the clarification balboa, not intending to over-polarize, but i feel increadibly strongly towards it. i can see where bad care in any tort could lead to mbd, i just don't get the justification of being scared of a new theory and hiding it because it may cause some torts to look healthy, but not actually be healthy. a pyramided tort can look healthy too, and not actually be healthy. so where's the justification in that? it doesn't make any sense to me. what it is starting to sound like to me is that ona's trying to get with all the brilliant experienced minds, draw some conclusions, and make some secret experiments and not share anything with anybody that he doesn't think is worthy, so that he can be glorified for solving the pyramiding equation. and in the meantime he's hiding behind "what if it's wrong" as his excuse for not sharing good, usable, correct information with a newbie, allow thousands upon thousands of torts to become pyramided, and live in improper care, just so that he can get his name on the credits.
i just don't see where this post got "way out of hand." aside from the people coming to ona's defense and saying that, in an attempt to get me to stop posting i guess, or apologize maybe, i don't see anyone else saying it. maybe there were some comments made by other people too, maybe it wasn't me you're saying that to, but you guys seem to be overlooking several rude comments that ona specifically made towards me, several sarcastic remarks, and some over-used phrases trying to cast a bad light in my direction because he didn't want me to respond anymore. that's the part i personally think deserves a "way out of hand" if any of them do. it's unbecoming and it's not a very justifiably set of mind to be rude to other people in order to try to get them to agree with you. but i'm not coming on just so that i can post that. it doesn't bother me either, i can see his comments for what they are; i'm only bringing it up bc i'm slightly confused, maybe a little annoyed, that i keep hearing that "way out of hand" statement. i don't really personally even believe that the things he said were "way out of hand."
anyways, squamata (and ona) i do understand that there is a slight chance we could be wrong. i don't see it, but i understand it. what if we are? raising a pyramided tort is wrong too, what's so much "more wrong" about two wrongs? because one idea is newer? one idea may be right or partially right and someone wants to claim the discoveries all to himself? that's it; i'm racking my brain trying to figure out what could be wrong with this information and technique, and that's literally the only thing that i can come up with. even the unbelievably slim chance that we could be wrong doesn't make it right to allow people to continue raising torts in ANOTHER wrong way. if we end up being wrong in the theory of humidity, which i personally strongly do not believe, then someone will write the first letter to us. and, someone will write this letter to us if we HIDE this information and it turns out to be correct, too. only, this time, we KNOW pyramiding is wrong, so the letter will be even more wrong and angry because we are KNOWINGLY leading others astray, on PURPOSE. even if your opinion is that you can get a perfectly healthy tort out of it, which i'm personally not convinced of, nature did NOT form this tortoise this way, therefore i just cannot justify it as "right". because, let's be honest, even if a small portion of the "leading tortoise experts" thought that this type of shell problem is "good enough," then there would not be such an all out world wide fascination with finding out how to correct it.
i'm not satisfied with raising my tortoises as "good enough" until some long-term tortoise-lifetime 100 year scientific study can actually prove that the way i'm doing it is for sure worse than the new way. i just can't fathom someone who wants to keep a good thing a secret. there is where i become interested in the subject, and the part where a double-standard comes in due to the fact that neither way can "scientifically be deemed correct" is where i become passionate about it.
especially as a new tortoise owner, as i've already mentioned, and i would be one of those deemed "unworthy of the golden secret" .
tom: i'm really looking forward to your xrays. please create a new thread so i can look for it if i miss it when you post it. i'm very interested to see how they look! (but honestly, i'm not expecting anything but the best from you!) i do want to see what a pyramided tort's xray looks like too!
i just don't see where this post got "way out of hand." aside from the people coming to ona's defense and saying that, in an attempt to get me to stop posting i guess, or apologize maybe, i don't see anyone else saying it. maybe there were some comments made by other people too, maybe it wasn't me you're saying that to, but you guys seem to be overlooking several rude comments that ona specifically made towards me, several sarcastic remarks, and some over-used phrases trying to cast a bad light in my direction because he didn't want me to respond anymore. that's the part i personally think deserves a "way out of hand" if any of them do. it's unbecoming and it's not a very justifiably set of mind to be rude to other people in order to try to get them to agree with you. but i'm not coming on just so that i can post that. it doesn't bother me either, i can see his comments for what they are; i'm only bringing it up bc i'm slightly confused, maybe a little annoyed, that i keep hearing that "way out of hand" statement. i don't really personally even believe that the things he said were "way out of hand."
anyways, squamata (and ona) i do understand that there is a slight chance we could be wrong. i don't see it, but i understand it. what if we are? raising a pyramided tort is wrong too, what's so much "more wrong" about two wrongs? because one idea is newer? one idea may be right or partially right and someone wants to claim the discoveries all to himself? that's it; i'm racking my brain trying to figure out what could be wrong with this information and technique, and that's literally the only thing that i can come up with. even the unbelievably slim chance that we could be wrong doesn't make it right to allow people to continue raising torts in ANOTHER wrong way. if we end up being wrong in the theory of humidity, which i personally strongly do not believe, then someone will write the first letter to us. and, someone will write this letter to us if we HIDE this information and it turns out to be correct, too. only, this time, we KNOW pyramiding is wrong, so the letter will be even more wrong and angry because we are KNOWINGLY leading others astray, on PURPOSE. even if your opinion is that you can get a perfectly healthy tort out of it, which i'm personally not convinced of, nature did NOT form this tortoise this way, therefore i just cannot justify it as "right". because, let's be honest, even if a small portion of the "leading tortoise experts" thought that this type of shell problem is "good enough," then there would not be such an all out world wide fascination with finding out how to correct it.
i'm not satisfied with raising my tortoises as "good enough" until some long-term tortoise-lifetime 100 year scientific study can actually prove that the way i'm doing it is for sure worse than the new way. i just can't fathom someone who wants to keep a good thing a secret. there is where i become interested in the subject, and the part where a double-standard comes in due to the fact that neither way can "scientifically be deemed correct" is where i become passionate about it.
especially as a new tortoise owner, as i've already mentioned, and i would be one of those deemed "unworthy of the golden secret" .
tom: i'm really looking forward to your xrays. please create a new thread so i can look for it if i miss it when you post it. i'm very interested to see how they look! (but honestly, i'm not expecting anything but the best from you!) i do want to see what a pyramided tort's xray looks like too!
This is what you get when caution is not exercised.
I believe we should be cautious. Unfortunately, it will be the lifetimes of many tortoises down the road before we can claim 'victory' with regards to what we believe to be good husbandry currently.
moswen said:
Wow.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2010
- Messages
- 903
moswen said:
...really shelly? if you're going to quote, make it the whole quote. i don't understand why "ona or anyone else thinks differently" about the fact that i'm only stating my opinion, and that i'm not "ostracizing anybody". as in, everyone keeps saying this post got way out of hand, i don't know why anyone thinks it got way out of hand, stating my opinion isn't a reason to think i'm doing anything differently besides stating my opinion.
obviously, people are allowed to have different opinions.
what a leap.
if anyone has anything else to say on the subject, with why they believe humidity is bad, and they can say it along with some good evidence to back it up, i'd be more than happy to listen. but this is a debate section, this is a debateable post, if you're going to post, at least post along with the debate- either agreeing with, or disagreeing with something, and posting EVIDENCE as to why.
i do just have one more thing to think about... how humid is it in hawaii right now? new york? california? oklahoma? a sulcata's burrow in africa? everyone's environment's humidity levels are different.... so someone who has low humidity levels adds more to it. are they the bad guys for adding the same humidity levels that a tortoise in hawaii may already be recieving? just because they're personally adding it, the environment is not supplying it? hummmm....
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2010
- Messages
- 903
nope dan, you're just as right as you can be. no one in this whole thread has claimed humidity was bad. however, there have been a few areas where it is claimed that to PHYSICALLY SUPPLY humidity to your tortoise, and to inform others about physically supplying humididty to their tortoises, is a "borderline reckless" thing to do. glad to have that cleared up.
Actually, humidity CAN be bad in and of itself for a species whose lungs cannot tolerate it. I do not know if this applies to any tortoise species (I believe I have read this about Desert Torts and some others- but not sure) but in other species, excess humidity causes respiratory infections or problems. Overly high humidity can also cause problems with mold, mildew, and 'bad air syndrome'.
Just pointing out that too much or too little of anything can cause problems.
Just pointing out that too much or too little of anything can cause problems.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2010
- Messages
- 903
zzzdanz said:
oh no problem dan, i'm sure no one can claim to never have an "air head" moment every now and again... if you'd like to take the time to re-read some of the posts maybe you'll be able to grasp it a little better.
would you like to inform us where you stand on this debate, and back it up with some verifiable, circumstantial, or scientifically proven evidence as to why you believe what you do? or are you happy with your position as "the heckler" on this particular thread?
Redfoot NERD said:
I can not believe you of all people would say that!
Onarock, I for one think you make some great points. Please do us and more importantly, the tortoises a favor and keep posting.
- Status
