Female TTBT intimidation?

[MrMarg&me]

We have had Miss Marg for three years. She is an adult. Vet believes approx. late teens by health of eyes. We also have Lois who appears to be female but is too young to be sure. In July we adopted Pearl a gulf coast box turtle from The San Diego Turtle and Tortoise Society. Pearl is an adult. SDTTS guessed Pearl to be in her twenties.
Miss Marg had mounted Pearl. In the mating position. Miss Marg's back toenails were locked in between Pearl's carapace and plastron. Would a female do this to bully? Or if it was only a bully tactic would it not be so realistic? Or is Miss Marg actually Mr Marg? I am concerned for the welfare of Pearl and also I do not want to be responsible for the creation of more box turtles when so many need quality homes. I also do not want to mix the species.
Miss Marg has brown eyes, a flat plastron and does not chase Pearl. Our herp vet concurred she is female. Her tail is short but not as short as Pearl's.

 

[Neal]

Closing on the toenails of a mounting turtle is the typical mating response of a female box turtle. So, I wouldn't consider it bullying or aggression.

Can you share some pictures? Female box turtles mounting other females does not happen regularly, from my experience. So you may have a male.

 

[wellington]

I agree, pics of the bottom shell tail area will help us to determine if she is indeed a she.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Thank you for responding. I will provide photos at my next opportunity. This is quite disturbing. I do not know how to locate quality, informed, long term homes for potential hatchlings. The best laid plans... Also my husband will not be thrilled about taking up more garden space for another properly sized enclosure. For it will be necessary to separate them. Hibernation season is upon us so maybe I have until the spring.

 

[lisa127]

Photos of the underside of the tail will help to determine gender.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Thank you for everyone's replys. I will post photos of Miss Marg this weekend. I would like a family members help so I can hold her to get the best angles. I woke up in the middle of the night last night concerned about this.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Here is Miss/Mr Marg. S/He was not cooperating in allowing tail photos. We tried.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Here is friend Lois.

 

[MrMarg&me]

And Pearl. Is Pearl gulf coast or intragrade?

 

[Neal]

I’m struggling to see the pictures really well on my phone, but my first thoughts are that they are all 3-toes females.

 

[Neal]

Here is Miss/Mr Marg. S/He was not cooperating in allowing tail photos. We tried.

Now that I'm at a computer, I am not 100% sure this one is female. Need a better shot of the tail.

 

[Neal]

And Pearl. Is Pearl gulf coast or intragrade?

I do not have much experience with Gulf Coast, but what makes you think it is a Gulf Coast or hybrid vs. 3-toed?

 

[MrMarg&me]

Pearl is larger. Her shell is round rather than oval. Also the shell has upturned edges rather than straight where it connects to the plastron. The coloration on her face and neck has quite a bit of white. The older two turtles were determined to not freely come out of their shells for better photos.
Pearl also has more than three toes. But maybe none of these characteristics are very good indicators.
I don't know . Pearl is just different.
But what I am most concerned with is that Marg is female. But Marg was not going to show her tail while I was holding her.

 

[ColleenT]

the underside of Lois's tail looks male to me. Need a better shot of Marge's underside of tail. the other pics don't help with sexing.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Thank you Neal and ColleenT. We will try again to get better photos of tail areas. The turtles just refused to untuck while being held yesterday. Wow if Lois and Marg turn out to be male I will need three enclosures.
Colleen how is it you were able to adopt all females? They must have all been adult and obviously you know what you are doing.

 

[ColleenT]

i got my first 2 as a pair, And i knew i had one of each. The other 2 females i was sent, Ilene was supposed to be a female 3-toed, but she was a gulf coast. Rio was adopted by me, and she is also a 3-toed female. An expert sent her to me from a turle rescue group. I guess i got lucky with the girls.

With Your Lois, it looks as if the vent is past the shell edge, which usually means a male. males also have longer tails. It is kind of hard to tell with Lois.

 

[PJay]

The head shape, and in those pictures what looks like some rather large rear feet on Marg indicates male to me. There isn't any plastron concavity, but that's not unusual with three toeds. I've never seen a female of any box turtle species that would mount another turtle and place its hind claws in the shell as a mating male would. Marg looks older than late teens, the shell is worn so smooth I would estimate much older.

I see the curling on Pearl's rear costal scutes but it doesn't look severe enough to be the flaring of a full Gulf Coast box turtle. SDTTS has some very experienced members so I hesitate to contradict, but to me It looks like she has the carapace pitting so characteristic of Three toeds. I would say full Three toed or possibly Three toed/Gulf intergrade.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Thank you so much PJay. I have always thought Marg was much older than teens because her shell is very smooth. I spoke to our vet about this. He insisted that the health of her eyes indicated her age as late teens. But I have never been completely convinced. Thank you also for comments about Pearl.
So, do you all think it would be ok to build a separate enclosure in the spring to keep the genders apart? I unfortunately already witnessed one mating. But they have slowed down considerably with fall approaching.
And thank you Colleen. I enjoyed reading about how you found your turtles.
I would have to agree about Lois. With all I have learned here on the forum I suspected she might be male. Still very young.

 

[PJay]

If you are thinking about building an additional enclosure to keep the female(s?) separate from the male(s?) in an effort to avoid reproduction, the sooner the better. Female box turtles can retain the sperm from a male in their body and produce fertilized eggs for up to four years after mating. Do your box turtles brumate outside over the winter? It looks like Temecula winters are pretty mild with average highs in the 60's and average lows in the upper 40's.

 

[MrMarg&me]

Thank you PJay. Yes our winters are relatively mild. Marg usually will hibernate at the end of November until mid February. So we will have a weekend project building a separate enclosure.