Genetic bottleneck? Blue eastern box turtle.

[Nixxy]

I cannot say I have ever seen one of that color, but it's quite stunning. Hope he has a good home now! That's a good rescue.


Always makes me happy to hear a tort/turt get a good home from a rescue. He looks quite healthy!

 

[Saloli]

Blue is common in Mexican and Yucatan Box Turtles which are closer related to the ttbt and gcbt then to the eastern or Florida but they are all descendants of the gulf or giant boxers (though if you separate major from putnami they are it's descendants). So in theory they should all be potential carriers of the blue trait but that doesn't take into account genetic drift or the founder effect. Which are directly linked to bottle necks.

 

[jojodesca]

Haha....Laughing at Steve and Terryo....if I was going to steal turtles..I would take this blue man group member!!!

 

[terryo]

I have a feeling we will all be on line when the "eggs" hatch. Fingers crossed for that!!

 

[karlyholmes]

[/quote]

Well, it seems for me that my turtles get fed more regularly now that I have more. There is less waste, so feeding almost feels cheaper. Poor feeders start feeding sooner when they see what other turtles are eating.

Currently, it's trout chow, turtle brittle, super worms, night crawlers, and strawberries that grow in each pen. Prepared food frozen is best, but I haven't made any this year yet.
[/quote]

Okay so the turtle brittle is like that dry food? And when you say trout chow are you just getting frozen trout and chopping it up and feeding raw? Im only feeding earthworms, crickets, HB egg, and occasionally mealworms for the protein. Ive got down what they enjoy for fruit and veggie but the protein eludes me a bit. What all protein choices can you give regularly???

 

[Allghoi Khorkhoi]

Your Blue EBT looks realistic with white blotches mixed in the color and the blue looks natural.

In July of 2010 the turtle pictured below was offered for sale on Kingsnake for $500 I think - can't remember, could have been asking more. I felt these pictures were of a turtle that had been dipped in methylene blue or some other form of fraud like feeding it colloidal silver because the color just doesn't look natural.

Yours is very interesting. BTW the guy selling it got it from a third party and didn't seem to know it's origins or history.

 

[Saloli]

It looks kind of like a photo shop job but the face reminds me of a Yucatan I saw in a picture

 

[Tccarolina]

Your Blue EBT looks realistic with white blotches mixed in the color and the blue looks natural.

In July of 2010 the turtle pictured below was offered for sale on Kingsnake for $500 I think - can't remember, could have been asking more. I felt these pictures were of a turtle that had been dipped in methylene blue or some other form of fraud like feeding it colloidal silver because the color just doesn't look natural.
BTW the guy selling it got it from a third party and didn't seem to know it's origins or history.

Thanks for posting the pics! That one is very unique, the color is a different shade, too. I'd love to see more pics of him. Anybody know where that one went?

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Blue is common in Mexican and Yucatan Box Turtles which are closer related to the ttbt and gcbt then to the eastern or Florida but they are all descendants of the gulf or giant boxers (though if you separate major from putnami they are it's descendants). So in theory they should all be potential carriers of the blue trait but that doesn't take into account genetic drift or the founder effect. Which are directly linked to bottle necks.

Interesting, I may need your help in identifying what the results mean, if I get certain percentages of blue babies and such. (fingers crossed)

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Well, it seems for me that my turtles get fed more regularly now that I have more. There is less waste, so feeding almost feels cheaper. Poor feeders start feeding sooner when they see what other turtles are eating.

Currently, it's trout chow, turtle brittle, super worms, night crawlers, and strawberries that grow in each pen. Prepared food frozen is best, but I haven't made any this year yet.
[/quote]

Okay so the turtle brittle is like that dry food? And when you say trout chow are you just getting frozen trout and chopping it up and feeding raw? Im only feeding earthworms, crickets, HB egg, and occasionally mealworms for the protein. Ive got down what they enjoy for fruit and veggie but the protein eludes me a bit. What all protein choices can you give regularly???

[/quote]

Trout chow is a pelleted food for fish. Turtle Brittle is a pelleted food for turtles made by Nasco.

I forgot snails. I feed snails occasionally as well.

 

[Saloli]

Mine like wolf spiders and slugs

 

[karlyholmes]

Mine like wolf spiders and slugs

OMG! We have SOOO many of those in and around our house (wolf spiders) but those things are so vicious arent they dangerous to the turts???? Ew that grosses me out so badly thinking about it. Do you squash them first?

 

[Tccarolina]

Here are two of the four females from the blue locality. I don't have pictures yet of the other two females.
So far, three of the four have laid eggs for me, with a total of thirteen eggs. The first two clutches of four are fertile, and it's too early to tell on the third clutch of five eggs.

This first female laid four fertile eggs soon after she arrived.

This is the only one of the four that has not laid eggs for me. She laid eggs before I got her in the pen of the guy who collected her.

 

[Saloli]

No more dangerous then the snakes and rodents they eat or even the crickets.

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They look a lot like my Little John. As far as the spiders no I don't kill them I let the turtles hunt for them. It helps to keep the turtles entertained. They try to climb the walls when they get bored.

 

[Neal]

Nice looking dude, and nice looking dudettes...I've been talking about it and putting it off for far too long. I think I'll get serious about adding some boxies.

 

[Redstrike]

While it isn't common, it isn't uncommon either.......Gulf Coasts, Floridas, and the Integrades all show it - Some more than others........I doubt it is anything heritable in a consistant manner........I know someone who is working with blue Gulf Coasts for years, and he hasn't produced any in numbers.......The blue tends to show up around maturity from the individuals I've seen........

It is well known in some Gulf Coast populations, and probably integrades near those areas. I've only seen pics of one Florida subspecies with small patches of blue on his cheeks. I did not know it was common in Florida box turtles.

It is very uncommon in Easterns. I'm aware of maybe 6 individuals that are pure easterns with any blue at all. No doubt there are more out there in collections, but it is poorly known from this subspecies.

You don't think it is consistantly heritable? Why do you think so? I'm assuming it is a recessive gene that is expressed in males.

Steve

I think this is definitely genetic and your observation that males generally exhibit the blue skin trait may be because it is a sex-linked trait. It can lead to some very wacky expressions that confused geneticists for years until Thomas Hunt Morgan finally cracked it using fruit fly eye colors. Male fruit flies occasionally exhibited white eyes, but they never observed this in the females. The reason was due to the males having a "Y" and "X" chromosome and the white trait was located on the "Y" chromosome, which females cannot have. I can't say for sure, but maybe something similar is occurring in eastern box turtles (there are different male and female sex traits in different organisms, I don't know if tortoises are XY and XX, regardless it could be sex-linked).

 

[turtlemann2]

Wow even the girls are stunning... you sure have alot of projects going on

 

[Saloli]

I think this is definitely genetic and your observation that males generally exhibit the blue skin trait may be because it is a sex-linked trait. It can lead to some very wacky expressions that confused geneticists for years until Thomas Hunt Morgan finally cracked it using fruit fly eye colors. Male fruit flies occasionally exhibited white eyes, but they never observed this in the females. The reason was due to the males having a "Y" and "X" chromosome and the white trait was located on the "Y" chromosome, which females cannot have. I can't say for sure, but maybe something similar is occurring in eastern box turtles (there are different male and female sex traits in different organisms, I don't know if tortoises are XY and XX, regardless it could be sex-linked).

The trait can not be sex linked as Terrapene does not have sex chromosomes. Their gender is TDSD ( temperature dependent sex determination) which means that the incubation temperature is what determines gender. Though it could still be gender specific but be epigenetic in that the hormones could cause or prevent it't expression.

 

[Tccarolina]

Here is the whole Blue Group - 2.4
Three of the four females have laid eggs, but I don't know if the blue male was the father or not. The only known males in the contained woods were both blue, but there may have been others before the fire burned it.
For now, I'm assuming the trait is a simple single-gene recessive trait expressed only in males.
Here are the outcomes as I understand it. Saloli, feel free to correct my rusty genetics.

If an entire clutch shows blue, then I know that that female is full blue (homozygous).

If some are blue and others aren't, than I know she carries at least one blue allele (heterozygous), but that some might be females (even though the incubator is at a 96% male likely 78 degrees F). Or, it might mean there are multiple fathers, or a different father who is het for blue.

If none are blue, than she may still be heterozygous, and multiple years mating with a blue male will prove this out. Or, she may not carry the trait at all. Or she is homozygous (full blooded blue), but the father does not carry the gene at all.

---

I think this is definitely genetic and your observation that males generally exhibit the blue skin trait may be because it is a sex-linked trait. It can lead to some very wacky expressions that confused geneticists for years until Thomas Hunt Morgan finally cracked it using fruit fly eye colors. Male fruit flies occasionally exhibited white eyes, but they never observed this in the females. The reason was due to the males having a "Y" and "X" chromosome and the white trait was located on the "Y" chromosome, which females cannot have. I can't say for sure, but maybe something similar is occurring in eastern box turtles (there are different male and female sex traits in different organisms, I don't know if tortoises are XY and XX, regardless it could be sex-linked).

The trait can not be sex linked as Terrapene does not have sex chromosomes. Their gender is TDSD ( temperature dependent sex determination) which means that the incubation temperature is what determines gender. Though it could still be gender specific but be epigenetic in that the hormones could cause or prevent it't expression.

I hadn't thought about that. I guess I figured the Y chromosome appeared at the right temperature, but that doesn't make sense if you think about it!

So epigenetic is strickly hormonal expression of a trait?

It does seem to be the case that only males express the color trait, in all the subspecies that show it, Gulf Coasts, Florida's, Easterns, Ornates (green and blue), and Mexican's.

Steve

 

[Saloli]

Yes hormonal influence is an example of epigenetics kind of how certain chemicals can turn off the segments of DNA in male fish so that they don't develop testis and so don't produce testosterone and thus appear to be female.

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Temperature dependent sex determination is another example of epigenetics.

 

[Zamric]

With WalkingRock and my 2 Leopards, I would say I have enough Tortoises!

...But the Question rises... "What will I do with this beautiful indoor enclosure when when Eros and Gaia out grow it next year?"

... plus that will give you time with your breeding program and give me a better chance at getting a "True Blue"!

 

[Jacqui]

They are a beautiful group. Makes you hope a few more of them survived the fire. Have they gone back out and looked for survivors?