Geochelone or Chelonoidis?

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Madkins007

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I was asked by Chewbacca whether the 'proper' Genus name for Red-foots is Geochelone or Chelonoidis. This is a summary of the research I have done on this:


The scientific names of a lot of species are in a turmoil right now as DNA and other research is changing how we look at what is related to what. In theory, any two members of the same species can freely interbreed. That is the main issue- what things are related enough to breed.

When Scientific names were just starting, Karl Linneaus was trying to group plants and animals in logical ways. He and most people for a century afterwards based this mostly on looks, behavior, and location. In 1788, ALL tortoises were some variation of the Genus Testudo. The South American tortoises with the dark shells and light patterns were called 'Testudo denticulata' for the toothed edge on the back of the shell.

In 1824, the South American explorer and naturalist J. B. von Spix decided that there were two similar tortoises in South America and called the 'smooth edged' one Testudo carbonaria. Because of how slowly information moved at this time, it was not widely accepted, and the differences between the two were poorly defined. Many museum specimens were mis-labeled, etc.

In 1826, Leopold Fitzinger did a lot of muddying the waters. He created the genus names of Geochelone and Chelonoidis, he called the Red-foot G. carbonaria and the Yellow C. denticulata. To make matters worse, he labeled something as G. tabulata, a name that pops up from time to time.

1833- Wagler introduces the name Testudo boiei to both species, even though he is credited with figuring out how to tell the difference between the two- and the who idea of two species falls into disuse until the late 1950's.

Confused yet? Its a mess, isn't it? it goes on for another hundred years like this- a hodge-podge of names and variations on names.

In the 1950's, people like Loveridge and Ernest Williams are trying to clear things up and settle on Geochelone carbonaria and G. denticulata Not everyone buys this at the time, and there is still some bickering between names, relationships, etc. There is an on-going war between 'lumpers and splitters'- people who try to group as many animals together as possible, and those who try to make each variant a species. Fight and bicker for another 50 years.

In 1980 to present, a few things happen. We start to look at animal DNA and more carefully at skeletons- if two animals have almost the same small skeletal structures, like the details of bones around the eye and ear, they are usually closely related. They started to think that the South American tortoises are not closely enough related to the African tortoises to share the name Geochelone. Another change is that scientists have worked harder at using the 'right' name by the official naming rules- one of the rules is that the oldest specific and accurate names trump newer ones. The oldest name for these tortoises that cannot be applied to any other is 'Chelonoidis' (which roughly means 'of the turtle', while Geochelone means 'earth turtle').

A Frenchman named Roger Bour started this in 1980 by studying the skulls of various tortoises. For about 20 years, it was mostly just used in France (even with modern communications, ideas still sometimes move slowly), but it has been used more and more widely lately.

Currently, as I understand it, the most "accurate" name is Chelonoidis, but Geochelone is still widely used, and is the name most often seen in print in many publications.

So- I think they are Chelonoidis carbonaria, but will not argue with anyone using Geochelone. You will also often see a compromise in which one or the other name is in parenthesis, like Geochelone (Chelonoidis) carbonaria.
 

Bryan

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If they are going to get serious about it they should also have different names for potential sub species or geographic variants as well.
 

Redfoot NERD

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MeTaLerke said:
Depends on the taxonomic list and the age of the list. The most correct is Chelonoidis.

Don't you mean the current/most recent.. not correct? They are redfoot tortoises.. and there are those that would take issue to that!

Terry K
 

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Chewbecca said:
I suppose I should reply since I was the one that brought up the question.:D

When searching online, this is what I found.

Then I noticed madkin's signature, so I PMed him asking him.:D

And the confusion/contradiction began.

Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K
 

Madkins007

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Bryan said:
If they are going to get serious about it they should also have different names for potential sub species or geographic variants as well.

Yeah- but right now there are no recognized sub-species, and the trend in taxonomy is to try to eliminate sub-species- if the DNA is the same between two sub-species, it is a species- maybe a race or morph. If the DNA is different enough, it is a different species.

I have heard that some researchers in France have established 3 or 4 sub-species, but I cannot locate any specifics on that.

From what I have seen and read (knowing full well I am not an expert, just really curious), I think that the Northern, Brazilian/Bahai/Cherry-head, and Southern/Gran Chaco are legit possibilities based on sizes, behaviors, habitats, and some small structural issues (like spurs and the Cherry-head's bulbous nose)

Maybe splitting the Northern between North-East and North-West at about the Andes is a possibility, but that looks more like a geographic color morph than anything deeper.
 

Bryan

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Redfoot NERD said:
Chewbecca said:
I suppose I should reply since I was the one that brought up the question.:D

When searching online, this is what I found.

Then I noticed madkin's signature, so I PMed him asking him.:D

And the confusion/contradiction began.

Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K

I do for a number of reasons. Naming and keeping distinct populations pure keeps genetic purity intact. It is also important for import into certain areas. Changing the scientific name of an animal can make it more difficult for importation. That's just my own personal opinion.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Bryan said:
Redfoot NERD said:
Chewbecca said:
I suppose I should reply since I was the one that brought up the question.:D

When searching online, this is what I found.

Then I noticed madkin's signature, so I PMed him asking him.:D

And the confusion/contradiction began.

Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K

I do for a number of reasons. Naming and keeping distinct populations pure keeps genetic purity intact. It is also important for import into certain areas. Changing the scientific name of an animal can make it more difficult for importation. That's just my own personal opinion.

Bryan.. 'Naming and keeping distinct populations pure keeps genetic purity intact'.. that sounds all well and good.. however I assure you ( in the real world ) the only thing that matters to the exporter or the importer is $$$$$$$! Sad but true.

Terry K

Madkins007 said:
Bryan said:
If they are going to get serious about it they should also have different names for potential sub species or geographic variants as well.

Yeah- but right now there are no recognized sub-species, and the trend in taxonomy is to try to eliminate sub-species- if the DNA is the same between two sub-species, it is a species- maybe a race or morph. If the DNA is different enough, it is a different species.

I have heard that some researchers in France have established 3 or 4 sub-species, but I cannot locate any specifics on that.

From what I have seen and read (knowing full well I am not an expert, just really curious), I think that the Northern, Brazilian/Bahai/Cherry-head, and Southern/Gran Chaco are legit possibilities based on sizes, behaviors, habitats, and some small structural issues (like spurs and the Cherry-head's bulbous nose)

Maybe splitting the Northern between North-East and North-West at about the Andes is a possibility, but that looks more like a geographic color morph than anything deeper.


Mark I agree that "Appearance" really seems to be the only 'real' differences. And some circles even suspect that 'few' [ at best ] even know how to "read" DNA.

And because redfoots are still imported direct from the wild [ old geographic "morph" imports have recently been 're-opened' ] and/or "farmed" - no one seems to care enough [ to spend the $$$$ ] to establish the "sub-species" designation. They just aren't "rare" enough!

Another example.. would you believe in some "herp-communities" that I'm associated with ( only because I've been around as long as I have ) Indian Star tortoises are not considered anything 'special' so they destroy their eggs because they don't want to deal with them ---- and as hard as I've tried they won't let me have those females!

So dealing with those that make the "rules" and set the standards is often frustrating and discouraging! And nobody agrees on anything! And I get in trouble because I ask for [ personal experience ] documentation in an effort to keep everybody "honest" (?).

Terry K
 

Madkins007

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I'm not sure how this became a discussion of importing and such. Importers, exporters, and breeders are not the main drive behind this, and it is not really their job or concern.

On the other hand, amateur and professional scientists have worked on clarifying the names and relationships of things for centuries because it really is an important task. Many herp societies, like my local one, even donate some of their meager budget to the efforts.

As we've mentioned, importers, exporters, and breeders rarely fund or support this- but they are sure quick to exploit the discoveries. Whenever a new species or subspecies is described, they scramble to make money off the deal- especially if there is a possibility that import/export laws will change soon.

Is this an important issue? If you are just getting started, only deal with US animal sources, US books and sites, etc.- then probably not.

If you want to deal with the more scientific aspects of the hobby, or with people, books, dealers, etc. from other places- then it is helpful. By knowing the scientific name, I know that the jabuti, morrocoy, savannah tortoise, and more are all the same thing.

Is it confusing or debated? The process sorta is, but it follows rules. You can propose any name you want, and it will be debated. If it survives the process, it becomes the official name. Chelonoidis is pretty much the official name- the debate ha basically been over for a few years- it is just going to take a while for the dust to settle.

I can document every word of this if anyone is interested. Do I have personal experience of it? What personal experience do I need to discuss scientific names or to relay other people's documented research?
 

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Madkins007 said:
Bryan said:
If they are going to get serious about it they should also have different names for potential sub species or geographic variants as well.

Yeah- but right now there are no recognized sub-species, and the trend in taxonomy is to try to eliminate sub-species- if the DNA is the same between two sub-species, it is a species- maybe a race or morph. If the DNA is different enough, it is a different species.

I have heard that some researchers in France have established 3 or 4 sub-species, but I cannot locate any specifics on that.

From what I have seen and read (knowing full well I am not an expert, just really curious), I think that the Northern, Brazilian/Bahai/Cherry-head, and Southern/Gran Chaco are legit possibilities based on sizes, behaviors, habitats, and some small structural issues (like spurs and the Cherry-head's bulbous nose)

Maybe splitting the Northern between North-East and North-West at about the Andes is a possibility, but that looks more like a geographic color morph than anything deeper.

Madkins007, I've got to admit that you do a lot of research on tortoises. Always interesting to read. Do you do it for just Redfoots or do you also research others? I appreciate how you always try to help people to figure out things about their tortoises, thanks.

Bryan said:
Redfoot NERD said:
Chewbecca said:
I suppose I should reply since I was the one that brought up the question.:D

When searching online, this is what I found.

Then I noticed madkin's signature, so I PMed him asking him.:D

And the confusion/contradiction began.

Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K

I do for a number of reasons. Naming and keeping distinct populations pure keeps genetic purity intact. It is also important for import into certain areas. Changing the scientific name of an animal can make it more difficult for importation. That's just my own personal opinion.
 

Madkins007

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Candy- Redfoots top the list, but interesting questions catch my eye- like the taxonomy here, etc. I am also researching other forest species on the premise that they seem to be less understood overall.
 

Candy

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Madkins007 said:
Candy- Redfoots top the list, but interesting questions catch my eye- like the taxonomy here, etc. I am also researching other forest species on the premise that they seem to be less understood overall.

Well keep up the good work. :)
 

Bryan

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Madkins007 said:
I'm not sure how this became a discussion of importing and such. Importers, exporters, and breeders are not the main drive behind this, and it is not really their job or concern.

On the other hand, amateur and professional scientists have worked on clarifying the names and relationships of things for centuries because it really is an important task. Many herp societies, like my local one, even donate some of their meager budget to the efforts.

As we've mentioned, importers, exporters, and breeders rarely fund or support this- but they are sure quick to exploit the discoveries. Whenever a new species or subspecies is described, they scramble to make money off the deal- especially if there is a possibility that import/export laws will change soon.

Is this an important issue? If you are just getting started, only deal with US animal sources, US books and sites, etc.- then probably not.

If you want to deal with the more scientific aspects of the hobby, or with people, books, dealers, etc. from other places- then it is helpful. By knowing the scientific name, I know that the jabuti, morrocoy, savannah tortoise, and more are all the same thing.

Is it confusing or debated? The process sorta is, but it follows rules. You can propose any name you want, and it will be debated. If it survives the process, it becomes the official name. Chelonoidis is pretty much the official name- the debate ha basically been over for a few years- it is just going to take a while for the dust to settle.

I can document every word of this if anyone is interested. Do I have personal experience of it? What personal experience do I need to discuss scientific names or to relay other people's documented research?

Where I live there are specific import rules and specific species lists that you are allowed to import. If for example someone sends me Chelonoidis Carbonaria and the people doing the inspection are new and don't have the common sense to realize that it was once Geochelone Carbonaria (an accepted species), they could refuse the shipment. So it would be far easier for them to use the old name because of how slow government can work even if lets say that name hasn't been relevant for lets say 20 years for the sake of discussion.
 

cdmay

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Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K
[/quote]

I have to agree with with Terry K on this one.
I couldn't care less what they call them. Names get shuffled around as the years go by anyway.
Just look at the poor North American rat snakes and how many times those names have been 'officially' changed. These snakes need therapy from all the identity changes!
 

Madkins007

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cdmay said:
Let me see the hands of those [ new to tortoise keeping ] that give a flip.. either way...

Terry K

I have to agree with with Terry K on this one.
I couldn't care less what they call them. Names get shuffled around as the years go by anyway.
Just look at the poor North American rat snakes and how many times those names have been 'officially' changed. These snakes need therapy from all the identity changes!
[/quote]

One thing to keep in mind with animals like the ratsnake group, is that at least some of the changes reflect a better understanding of the animals and their interrelationships. Animals that were thought to be identical with different DNA, animals thought to be very different with identical DNA, etc. I was at a talk by Joseph Collins where he talked a lot about these snakes and the work going into it- it was fascinating!
 

cdmay

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Animals that were thought to be identical with different DNA, animals thought to be very different with identical DNA, etc. I was at a talk by Joseph Collins where he talked a lot about these snakes and the work going into it- it was fascinating!
[/quote]

Yep, I know about that. But then haven't some of the DNA studies been discredited or invalidated? I seem to remember **** Bartlett telling me that some of the DNA studies, where numbers of N. A. salamanders had been split into new groups, had been upended.
I agree, it is interesting but it might also be true that down the road much of this recent DNA work will be meaningless.
But my main point is that redfoots won't change any because taxonomists have shifted their genus. I mean when redfoots got removed from Geochelone and placed into the genus Chelonoides years ago I went out and explained it all to my tortoises. They just sat there and gave me that same "Hey man, how about a mango?" look. They weren't impressed at all.
 

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cdmay said:
Animals that were thought to be identical with different DNA, animals thought to be very different with identical DNA, etc. I was at a talk by Joseph Collins where he talked a lot about these snakes and the work going into it- it was fascinating!

Yep, I know about that. But then haven't some of the DNA studies been discredited or invalidated? I seem to remember **** Bartlett telling me that some of the DNA studies, where numbers of N. A. salamanders had been split into new groups, had been upended.
I agree, it is interesting but it might also be true that down the road much of this recent DNA work will be meaningless.
But my main point is that redfoots won't change any because taxonomists have shifted their genus. I mean when redfoots got removed from Geochelone and placed into the genus Chelonoides years ago I went out and explained it all to my tortoises. They just sat there and gave me that same "Hey man, how about a mango?" look. They weren't impressed at all.
[/quote]

There you have it folks, the red foots don't care and want mango's. Case closed! LOL!
 

Mike Pingleton

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Mark, I don't think I saw this mentioned - Le Minh et al (2006) did a comprehensive study of the pan-global Geochelone using mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. From their data, one of the things they recommended was the placement of the South American tortoises, including the Galop species, in Chelonoidis, and elevating Chelonoidis from a subgenus to genus. Interesting paper.

I guess most of us are just as happy with 'Redfoot'.

Le, Minh, and C.J. Raxworthy, W. P. McCord, L, Mertz. 2006. A molecular phylogeny of tortoises (Testudines: Testudinidae) based on mitochondrial and nuclear genes. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 40 (2006) pp. 517–531.

-Mike

Madkins007 said:
I was asked by Chewbacca whether the 'proper' Genus name for Red-foots is Geochelone or Chelonoidis. This is a summary of the research I have done on this:
 

Madkins007

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Mike Pingleton said:
Mark, I don't think I saw this mentioned - Le Minh et al (2006) did a comprehensive study of the pan-global Geochelone using mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. From their data, one of the things they recommended was the placement of the South American tortoises, including the Galop species, in Chelonoidis, and elevating Chelonoidis from a subgenus to genus. Interesting paper.

I guess most of us are just as happy with 'Redfoot'.

Le, Minh, and C.J. Raxworthy, W. P. McCord, L, Mertz. 2006. A molecular phylogeny of tortoises (Testudines: Testudinidae) based on mitochondrial and nuclear genes. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 40 (2006) pp. 517–531.

-Mike

Madkins007 said:
I was asked by Chewbacca whether the 'proper' Genus name for Red-foots is Geochelone or Chelonoidis. This is a summary of the research I have done on this:

None of the 'name history lists' I was working off had anything this recent. Thanks! The abstract looks interesting- I'm going to have to add that to my list to get.
 
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