Hatchling Enclosure

[archerkid]

Hi all!
I'm getting ready to take on a tortoise, after about a year of research. I've got an enclosure set up for a marginated hatchling, and wanted to get some feedback on the temps/humidity. I'm using a plastic tub that is about 2x4 feet, give or take a few inches. I am using coconut husk fiber as a substrate, with an 80% humidity up to 90% in the hideaway. The basking temperature is about 90°f and 70°f on the cool side. It drops to about 65-68 at night. I'm concerned this could be a little chilly for a marginated tortoise, risking RI. Any feedback would be great!
Thanks,
Alex

(Trying to attach a photo, hoping it works.)

 

[archerkid]

Took a couple more measurements, and the hide away at night stays around 73-74 degrees Fahrenheit. Upon closer inspection I've found the bulb I have doesn't provide uvb, so I'll be getting a different bulb. light is getting into the room, so if I get a stronger bulb (the hood is rated for 150 watts and I have a 100 watt bulb right now) with UVB, would the tortoise be able to get enough uvb/light in general?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Tom]

In time you will realize that the enclosure is too dry and humidity too low. By then the damage will already be done. Most people read the same stuff you have read and make this same mistake. Low-sided sweater boxes are worst case, in my opinion. THere is also a risk of the tortoise climbing out of those low side when it grows just a bit.

Flower pots on their sides are an okay hide, but they don't make a good humid hide. They are too open.

Your temperatures sound good, but i'd want the basking area just a little bit warmer.

If you can make a safe outdoor enclosure and get your tortoise outside for an hour or two a couple days a week or more, then you can skip indoor UV bulbs entirely.

None of these are typed specifically for marginated tortoises, but care for greeks, russians, hermanni and margies is very similar.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

You are off to a better start than most people, but a few more tweaks will help a lot.

 

[archerkid]

Hi Tom,
Thanks for all the feedback!
I'll try to close off the flower pot to make it a better humid hide, and if that still isn't good enough I'll grab a plastic shoebox and use that. The Article about baby Russians suggested 80 degrees for a humid hide. I've got a heat pad under the flower pot bringing the temp up to about 75 degrees; is that enough for the hide?

I'm planning to bring the walls up as he grows and of course move him to a table once that's appropriate.

I'll be switching the heat bulbs today so I'll have one that puts out UVB and also brings up the basking temp a bit.

I was led to believe that the plastic tubs served well for keeping humidity in. Could you elaborate on what you mean by too dry, and humidity too low? I was under the impression that 80-90% humidity was acceptable. If that isn't true it would be incredibly helpful to know what I should be shooting for. The substrate is about 2.5" deep and very moist. I have a mist/spray bottle to help keep it that way.

I have a lid for the enclosure, if I cover some of it, would this make it more suitable?

Unfortunately it is a little chilly in Oregon for a chunk of the year, so I think the uv (and a calcium/d3 supplement) will be necessary, but of course I'll do my best to sun him while it is warm!

I've got another week and a half before the tortoise will arrive, so I've got a bit of time to make some adjustments.
If anything else needs work I definitely appreciate the feedback!

Thanks again,
-Alex

 

[Alexio]

I think what he meant by too dry is that without a cover all of the humid warm air will escape. I keep my marginated tortoise at roughly 60 degrees at night and they are are quite young\small. A lid would work to keep in some humidity however with the sides being so low it is going to get extremely hot in that narrow of a space and would likely be way too hot. Your basking site should be in the 95 range but I like to have the cool side around 80-85. Marginated Tortoise, like a lot of the Mediterranean Tortoise need to get nice and heated up during the day so as not to get sick from being in a damp humid environment at night. I use 40 gallon breeder tanks with covers I make myself to hold in the heat and humidity. They are large enough to have a gradient and tall enough to (mostly)enclose your lights. My marginated all either burrow completely under the substrate at night or go into their humid hides which is roughly in the 90s for humidity. Pictures to follow:

 

[Alexio]

This is one type of plastic bins people use. It is not as long\wide but the sides are much higher and its easier to encase.



This is one of the tanks I use. I have a 100 wt mega ray which is another brand of Mercury vapor bulb. And I have a lid to keep the humidity it. The food dish is not ideal but I have been trying to find really nice flat rocks naturally and its taking forever.

 

[Tom]

Great info from Alexio.

While driving today I thought of a good analogy for explaining the open topped enclosure thing…

Imagine your enclosure is a glass of water with blue food coloring and you want your water to stay blue. Submerge your open topped glass of blue water into a swimming pool and what happens? All your blue water get diluted and replaced by the pool water, but because of the larger volume of pool water, the pool does not turn blue. This is the equivalent of an open topped enclosure in a normal household room. The blue colored galas of water represents the warm humid air you are making for your tortoise and the pool represents the room your enclosure sits in.

Now do this same experiment with a lid on your glass of blue water. This is a the idea behind a closed chamber. The goal is to keep the air in the enclosure contained so your heat and humidity don't float up up and away, into the colder drier room air.

The ultra low sides on your sweater box make it even easier to lose your warm humid air.

 

[archerkid]

Hi all,
Thanks for explaining that a touch more.
The standing humidity in the house here is 50%, and 70% outdoors, so the diffusion is taking a good while to take significant effect on the humidity in the enclosure. I've been sitting steady at about 85% for a few days now, and of course I'll continue to watch it. I'll be able to heighten the walls to improve the enclosure's capacity to hold humidity if it still proves to be an issue.

I'll keep that note about the lid in mind, I definitely don't want to cook this little guy! I'll take some measurements with the new light (have to wait for it to ship though) and hopefully that will bring both the basking temperatures, and the cool temperatures, up to a healthy range.

As always, I appreciate the help!
If anything else comes to mind, please let me know.

Thanks again,
-Alex

 

[Tom]

Hi all,
Thanks for explaining that a touch more.
The standing humidity in the house here is 50%, and 70% outdoors, so the diffusion is taking a good while to take significant effect on the humidity in the enclosure. I've been sitting steady at about 85% for a few days now, and of course I'll continue to watch it. I'll be able to heighten the walls to improve the enclosure's capacity to hold humidity if it still proves to be an issue.

I'll keep that note about the lid in mind, I definitely don't want to cook this little guy! I'll take some measurements with the new light (have to wait for it to ship though) and hopefully that will bring both the basking temperatures, and the cool temperatures, up to a healthy range.

As always, I appreciate the help!
If anything else comes to mind, please let me know.

Thanks again,
-Alex

Where are you getting those humidity readings and with what device?

The round stick-on type hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. Also worth noting that our incandescent bulb severely dry out the air around them. Even in a room with 50% humidity, you can get readings of less than 10% humidity under the bulb.

I harp on these points now because if its too dry and your tortoise pyramids, it cannot be undone. Going by previous experience, that is what is going to happen in an enclosure like the one you are using.

 

[archerkid]

I'm looking for one of the probe hygrometers at Home Depot, in the meantime I am using one of round, stick-on ones, though I'm not particularly proud of it.

I've been checking humidity under the lamp, in the middle of the enclosure, and in the flower pot. The basking spot was lower than the rest of the tank, though I don't recall it being quite that low.

Ill definitely be keeping an eye on the humidity, I don't want to see any pyramiding, of course. I'll continue to monitor the humidity with the (albeit inaccurate) hygrometer I have now, and the better one once I've found it.

As always, the help is appreciated and the harping doubly so! Helps keep me from getting side tracked with less important things.
Thanks again,
-Alex

 

[archerkid]

In a related note, I've read regular misting (1-2 times per day) and soaking (4-7 times per week) will help reduce the chances of humidity based pyramiding. I'm curious if that also stands up to the scrutiny of some of the experienced members here.

 

[Alexio]

I soak all my younglings every day for about 20-30 mins in 90is degree water. Small tortoise have to ability to hydrate or dehydrate fairly quickly. As far as "misting" that depends largely on your enclosed size and substrate. In a 4-2 ft space with several inches of substrate you will likely need more water than a misting. I use 1-2 gallons of water depending on the amount of substrate. This is where having a tall sided Enclosed comes in handy as it traps the warm humid air. If your setup is enclosed then adding water 2 x a week sounds right but it's just easier to add water when the substrate starts to dry out. Most humidity is created naturally when the heat from the bulbs hits the damp substrate the water evaporates and creates humidity.
Question, you said you are using a hygrometer with a probe, are you setting the probe right on the substrate or is there a gap? I have found placing humidity probes directly onto the substrate tends you give you the humidity of the substrate not the actual surrounding air, which can be misleading.

 

[archerkid]

I'm not using a probe hygrometer yet, just looking for one. In the meantime I am using one of those (less than ideal) round hygrometers from petco.

I'll take a page from your book and soak him every day then, it certainly can't hurt.

It sounds like the shallow box will be difficult to salvage. I'll try to get back to the hardware store as soon as I get the chance and look at a taller tub.

 

[archerkid]

As long as it is backed up against a wall like this, will the flower pot be a more suitable humid hide now?
The opening tapers to 2x5" now.
If not I'll pick up a plastic shoebox with the new enclosure tub.

 

[Tom]

As long as it is backed up against a wall like this, will the flower pot be a more suitable humid hide now?
The opening tapers to 2x5" now.
If not I'll pick up a plastic shoebox with the new enclosure tub.

That is better, but the opening is still too large. Plastic shoe boxes are better, but something dark and opaque is best. I use black plastic dishwashing tubs from Walmart.

 

[archerkid]

Good to know, I'll look for one while I'm getting new tub. At the very least the flower pot will make a nice (non-humid) hide.

I've also gotten one of those dishwashing tubs for soaking, just want to double check that it would be suitable.

 

[archerkid]

Hello again!

Per your suggestions I got a new tub! I also have two tubs for a humid hide, the other I'll use for soaking. Just waiting on my light bulb (should be here by Wednesday) and then I'll have some proper measurements for you. In the meantime, let me know what you think of the new tub/ which tub you think would be better as a humid hide/soaking tub.
The help is appreciated (as always)
-Alex

 

[Alexio]

That is a container that I think will work much better for you. As far as which one to use for a hide\soaking tub I would maybe use the smaller of the two for the hide to save on room in the enclosure, my humid hides are very small in some instances. The larger tote would work as a soaking tub but it will only need about a 1/2 or so of water at first so it may be a bit over kill. You could probably soak a Marginated tortoise it's whole life in that big tote. I use plastic black flower pots which are sometimes just bigger than the tortoise. This is one of my leopards in her tiny hut:


It's barely big enough to put her side by side in it. But honestly you could really use either bid for either purpose.

 

[archerkid]

Awesome!
Glad to hear that this new tub will work better. I'll play around with sizing, since I've got one vote for the blue and one for grey.

I also picked up a hygrometer. It doesn't have a probe, so before I rip it out of the packaging I'd like to know if it will still work.
Thanks again!
-Alex

Here's the new hygrometer, will this one work okay, even though it doesn't seem to have probes?

 

[Alexio]

Yes I use two of those and they are fairly accurate. Ha-ha. It's also good having a highs and lows measure for your temps to see how they behave while your gone or sleeping. Just be careful if you set it directly on moist substrate, as I have had some of the numbers on mine fade out. I'm assuming the hardware got a lil moist and this lead to some parts of numbers not showing up. It still measures temps\humidity accurately though.