Hatchling Fail Syndrome

[Jodie]

I thought it might be helpful to compile the info we have on this in one thread.
I purchased, 1/14, and 5/14, 2 Leo hatchlings that were not started correctly. Neither grew, but both were active and ate good. The littlest, Pensee, began to get a soft plastron, then she started sleeping more and eating less and less until she passed in August. This was a slow deterioration. The other, Pepe is still doing ok. He still has not grown hardly at all. He has gained 12 grams in 9 months. He is active and quite the character. I worry constantly that he is going to fail.
Amanda's recent example was very sudden. Making me all the more nervous. I would like to see what experiences others have had. Is there a way to reverse this? What are the best ways to pull them through?
This is a pic of Pepe at 8 months with my trio at 4 months. Each of the trio have gained more than 10 grams in the 1st 2 weeks that i had them. They are kept in one seperated enclosure. So everyones conditions are identical, but no contact.

 

[ascott]

that were not started correctly. Neither grew, but both were active and ate good

I am always curious as to what folks are basing this first statement on? What is factual knowledge that you have that gives support to they "were not started correctly"...and I am seriously curious here...how long in totality did you have each tortoise before you logged their behavior change?

 

[Jodie]

Factual knowledge is limited for me because these 2 were not bought direct from the breeder. I weighed them when i got them, so within a couple of weeks i knew they were not growing. Pensee's change was gradual. After 2 months i was noticing she was less active than had been, she continued to eat. By 2.5 months i noticed the plastron softening. She stopped eating by 3 months.
Do you have a different theory that explains this? Based on my experience HFS seems to offer a logical explanation, so i made assumptions on the only info i didn't have.

 

[ascott]

Factual knowledge is limited for me because these 2 were not bought direct from the breeder. I weighed them when i got them, so within a couple of weeks i knew they were not growing. Pensee's change was gradual. After 2 months i was noticing she was less active than had been, she continued to eat. By 2.5 months i noticed the plastron softening. She stopped eating by 3 months.
Do you have a different theory that explains this? Based on my experience HFS seems to offer a logical explanation, so i made assumptions on the only info i didn't have.

I think that this is the main part of my question, what I mean is---what are you measuring against as the claim that they were not started out correctly? What is correctly in relation to this statement?

This is the core of my question...I have seen this "hatchling failure syndrome" label and it "to me" is an opinion, speculation, a fancy guess...and what I mean by this is that it appears to be based on deductions versus hard core fact and scientific proof...."I am of the opinion" based on a different way of thinking, (than that "appears" to be the basis for this labeled syndrome), and here it is, and I lay no claim to being the almighty knowing--just my opinion, observation here, ---procreation is a tricky thing, it is not a perfect outcome every time science ....there are sometimes issues that are deep seeded before the baby can even hit the ground running, not every baby gets what is needed to survive while in the making....to me, it is called nature.

The basis for "my" belief here is, life has simply too many variables that can not be proven otherwise 100% of the time....science can speculate, can offer ratios (which are not proof, but fancy guesses) there are odds for just about every event that occurs in life as well as death....that is it. Simple as that....nothing scientific (very few things in life can be scientifically proven without any error)...humans seem to have a deep seeded desire to offer up a "why" to everything, even if we truly never can.

Since you say that the torts all received like care, like food--like environments yet one has moved on, that is a simple part of life---that is not a tortoise that was mis treated, ill treated nor neglected, right? Are we so ego filled that we believe we are responsible for all life--we simply are not that qualified .....again, this is my opinion. I believe we offer the best set up we possibly can, and those are even different from one to the other....depending on geographic location, peoples financial budget and a number of other variables....we offer what we consider prime conditions...and yet we have tortoise that die....then we see tortoise forced into horrible conditions for years and years and they are at times, no worse for the wear, then there are those that are very damaged but still live and eventually thrive once moved into a new setting....so, why then? Some will call it lucky (a variable?)...some will call it the grace of God, but none can tell you why one died and one lived--with exactness every time---but we can speculate once there is a dead animal....that is not proof, but a practice of deduction vs proven facts 100% of the time....

 

[Jodie]

Except that Pepe remains seriously struggling. Not growing. I guess that is why it is a theory. Kind of like the practice of medicine. Coming up with theories, examining them, and proving them wrong is how we learn. If i don't water my grass it will die. I think we could say there are lots of reasons it could have died. Maybe would have died anyway for any number of other reasons, it is a safe assumption of cause and effect that not watering killed it.
If anyone has any theories on this failure after several months of life, why it happens, and what we can do, i would really like to hear them. Failure after several months of being good doesn't seem like natural selection or birth issues explains it.

 

[ascott]

If i don't water my grass it will die.

Absolutely, I believe I am of the crowd that then would say, well, what is the appropriate time and day along with exact amount to get the best result...so yes, I see your position and I understand some are of one way of thinking and others are of another...neither wrong, just different ...and I sincerely hope all works out for the best for your tort..

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

ascott wrote "The basis for "my" belief here is, life has simply too many variables that can not be proven otherwise 100% of the time....science can speculate, can offer ratios (which are not proof, but fancy guesses) there are odds for just about every event that occurs in life as well as death....that is it. Simple as that....nothing scientific (very few things in life can be scientifically proven without any error)...humans seem to have a deep seeded desire to offer up a "why" to everything, even if we truly never can."

It's called statistics. It's not fancy and provides the difference between possible and probable. The numbers are hard and good, the variables are individual and specific. In nature, we have been told only one or two of a life time of reproduction for many, nearly all species, needs to survive to reproductive age, procreate, to enable the species to persists. I don't know what 'proven 100%' means. Maybe life's uncertainty and existentialism is causing you concern? Maybe you'll not be able to read this as you died in a car wreck before seeing it, that is possible, but statistically not probable. That difference causes a great many non-scientists to feel uncomfortable with math and science.

We as keepers are fully tilting those odds in favor of high survival of our tortoise pets. I think the OP is seeking to find those variable we can work with to increase the survival odds. So, yeah there are many things we can do, and 'starting right' is an accumulation of things we do to tilt those odds, many of those things emulate the benefits of nature and reduce the detriments of nature, for the individual. Sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes there was no best way, as the tortoise came with a legacy, of the care provided to the parents, and the parents' genes.

So, back to the OP, older long term adults that the offspring came from is a good clue, what the hard numbers are for that as a factor are open to debate. That the neonates get optimal care is more than just a guess - it's an in-situ documented aspect of life expectancy that some ecologists call the 'silver spoon effect'. When in relation to animals that get care from their parents it has a great deal to the quality of parental care. Tortoises pretty much just get a genetic and nutritional legacy form their parents, and then are at the (pick your own best word, mercy, whim, struggle, etc.) of nature where they hatch for survival.

We (in our care) are where they hatch, what we do is offer good food and a quality environment. Perhaps some generalities would work, but it is a species specific thing. I offer as much a range within limits for the neonates in my care. An example would be temperature, always no higher than but at least this high in a 24 hour cycle, and no lower than but at least this low in the same cycle, and within that cycle a chance to move around to get an individual best temp.

Our tortoises are a small microcosm in their self with all kinds of thing turning on and off based on external signals. Digestive enzymes are a biggy, I have not a specific answer about them, but it is a critical variable and gets much from external signals, as one example.I think it is a valid interest and glad to see the idea brought into one thread, but it may be untenable as it will end up being species specific. And what does work for 98% may not work for your animal if it's in that 2%, which may be what ascott was getting at, so why try, you might fail anyways.

 

[edwardbo]

Hello Jodie, Ascot is right, the way I see it hatchling mortality is incredibly high in nature. I try to simplify my husbandry and look forward rather than backwards .support the weak hatchlings as bestI can going forward .the bump in. The road for these hatchlings could have been a chill in transit , just a little dry, or just to rough a trip . I'm willing to bet that every experienced tort keeper here on the forum has had the experience of the "failure to thrive " hatchling . I have a baby yellow foot that is so slight ,small and sensitive that keeps on living with special support,this has been going on for almost a year.i suspect it was a slight chill that set this condition on .hope I'm making sense and what i would like to say is try not to blame yourself too much . Recently there was a post "we have hatching " by Tordise and emmisbreeder that showed that even these tort experts get many bumps in the road ....hope I made some sense ,I'm always in a rush. Much love .

 

[Jodie]

I understand what everyone is saying. I was hoping to get examples of what helped to support a struggling hatchling. What could i do in the future to increase chances of survival if a bump is suspected.
Thanks for the responses.

 

[ascott]

And what does work for 98% may not work for your animal if it's in that 2%, which may be what ascott was getting at,

Absolutely this is what ascott was getting at....I am happy to see that through all of the precise "math and science" someone finally gets what I am saying.....good good.

so why try, you might fail anyways.

However, then this garbage is what creates a ramp for the topic to go way off route....this is not at all what I said, but ENTIRELY you Will...lets be very exact on that.

Unless you want to read it as I meant it to be to the OP----you may try and you may tinker and you may pray and you may cry and you may inquire to all sources available to you---you may stay up and check on the tort every 30 minutes to see if it is still alive, you may sit on the couch with it propped on your lap through the night just to not miss anything...you can do alot of things to try to help a tortoise that is ailing---and there may be that turning point towards a recovery or a leap towards the next phase of health...or even after all of that--you may have a tort that was in the 2% (as Will so eloquently, scientifically derived) and fails, dies. Then the person who cared for the tort, who invested themselves emotionally is left with questions that simply have no 100% FACT BASED AND BACKED, tried and true every time source/reason for that tortoise death....this is the party that I am a kin to---you simply can not offer up an exact reason exactly every time for every situation as to why some do and some don't make it....anything out side of this opinion, is someone else's and not mine.....

 

[ascott]

In vertebrates, stress of any kind generally triggers the release of the stress hormones corticosterone and cortisone. Prolonged high levels of those hormones can reduce the effectiveness of the immune system, thereby allowing infections or diseases to become established.

Corticosterone; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corticosterone

Cortisone; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisone

There can be many things that create failure in tortoise, especially affected are the young. there are so many variables that there simply is no way to say that one particular factor/variable is the cause of all failings....here is simply another possible factor in what some like to label under Hatchling Failure Syndrome (such a terrible label, so broad)...

 

[Tom]

I understand what everyone is saying. I was hoping to get examples of what helped to support a struggling hatchling. What could i do in the future to increase chances of survival if a bump is suspected.
Thanks for the responses.

Necropsy on many examples of tortoises that were started with a "dry routine" demonstrates kidney and liver failure. This is not guesswork. It is tissue samples examined under a microscope by people who know what they are looking at and looking for. There is no mystery that chronic dehydration damages the internal organs of some of these "HFS" babies and leads to a pattern of common symptoms and finally death. Lethargy, lack of appetite, not opening the eyes and softening and bruising of the plastron are common to each of theses cases in the latter stages. The only real symptom that is apparent in the early stages for these unfortunate babies is lack of growth. The hatchling's failure in these cases is caused by the breeder or keeper's failure to provide the right environment and hydration. It is not some wispy unknown mystery of life. Started "correctly" nearly 100% of CB babies will survive and thrive.

What can you do for a baby that might have been started too dry without enough hydration? Just offer the correct conditions for the species, soak babies daily and offer a good diet. Once the damage is done, it is done. Some survive it and pull through, others don't. No way to predict it and no amount of money or vet care will change it. It all depends and just how much damage was done, or not done, early on. Making sure temperatures, humidity, hydration, and diet (including supplements), will give any of these babies the best chance at survival.

 

[Jodie]

Necropsy on many examples of tortoises that were started with a "dry routine" demonstrates kidney and liver failure. This is not guesswork. It is tissue samples examined under a microscope by people who know what they are looking at and looking for. There is no mystery that chronic dehydration damages the internal organs of some of these "HFS" babies and leads to a pattern of common symptoms and finally death. Lethargy, lack of appetite, not opening the eyes and softening and bruising of the plastron are common to each of theses cases in the latter stages. The only real symptom that is apparent in the early stages for these unfortunate babies is lack of growth. The hatchling's failure in these cases is caused by the breeder or keeper's failure to provide the right environment and hydration. It is not some wispy unknown mystery of life. Started "correctly" nearly 100% of CB babies will survive and thrive.

What can you do for a baby that might have been started too dry without enough hydration? Just offer the correct conditions for the species, soak babies daily and offer a good diet. Once the damage is done, it is done. Some survive it and pull through, others don't. No way to predict it and no amount of money or vet care will change it. It all depends and just how much damage was done, or not done, early on. Making sure temperatures, humidity, hydration, and diet (including supplements), will give any of these babies the best chance at survival.

Thank you Tom. I am just so worried about my surviving little one. 12 gram gain in 9 months is just so little. He is the cutest little thing. So out going and friendly.
This thread did not go the way i had intended at all. I think i was hoping to hear some success stories.
Thanks again. If you have any suggestions or tips you think might help him i would love to hear them.

 

[Turtlepete]

]

Necropsy on many examples of tortoises that were started with a "dry routine" demonstrates kidney and liver failure. This is not guesswork. It is tissue samples examined under a microscope by people who know what they are looking at and looking for. There is no mystery that chronic dehydration damages the internal organs of some of these "HFS" babies and leads to a pattern of common symptoms and finally death. Lethargy, lack of appetite, not opening the eyes and softening and bruising of the plastron are common to each of theses cases in the latter stages. The only real symptom that is apparent in the early stages for these unfortunate babies is lack of growth. The hatchling's failure in these cases is caused by the breeder or keeper's failure to provide the right environment and hydration. It is not some wispy unknown mystery of life. Started "correctly" nearly 100% of CB babies will survive and thrive.

Tom,
While there is no doubt in my mind that what your saying is true, that the "dry routine" sulcatas out there that may be attributed to a "hatchling failure syndrome", was indeed due to a fallacy in the keeper, I can't agree with you on the rest. I've lost a few reds over the years to issues like this. The whole "soft-shell syndrome" thing has happened with babies raised along perfectly healthy ones. I have a beautiful smooth adult I raised from a neonate (I hatched her), and one of her clutchmates followed the typical pattern of a soft-shell to begin with, failure to thrive, not eating well, general progressing lethargy and eventually death. The time period was always around 2-3 months for me. I can't attribute this to anything but some sort of deficiency present from birth, which is what I interpret a "hatchling failure syndrome" to mean. Maybe a calcium deficiency? It seems obvious to me that they are somehow unable to absorb calcium properly. Best guess I have.
On the other hand, one of my females nested for the first time last year. She laid 3 very large clutches (for a red foot). Over all the hatchlings I produced last year from her, I lost 3. All to the same pattern; they would thrive for the first 3-4 days, seemingly doing fantastic, and I would find them dead the next day. There is no cause I can discern from this, no "keepers failure" on my part. And if I had failures, I would be perfectly willing to accept them to improve my management of my animals in the long run. But I can assure you, there was no issue in their care. I also had one loss to a seemingly neurological disorder; the animal walked around with its head tilted to the side, sometimes in circles, commonly flipped itself over. It still ate and generally did well for the first 2 weeks until it dropped dead.
All of these cases were raised alongside perfectly healthy hatchlings that went on to thrive. There was no failure on my part. So, besides "failure-to-thrive syndrome", some sort of deficiency present from birth, I can't discern any other reason for their demise.

Age seems to have an effect on a females chance to throw one of these "dud" babies. As I said, one of my females that produced first time this year had three that just died on me. I should also mention, since it could be revenant, alongside the three that died after several days out of the egg, there were also two more from her clutch that died exiting the egg. They would get halfway out of the egg, and then juts give up and die in a couple hours. Same incubator, same container as three dozen other healthy babies. I can't find any reason for this except they weren't right to begin with.

So, for the kind of failure-to-thrive I've seen, there was no reversing the affects. I've had three of them do the whole soft-shell syndrome thing over the years. There is nothing I could do to reverse it, but maybe someone out there has some tricks. All of them, the problem was noticeable in the first week or two. The others, besides the one with some sort of neurological disorder, there was no telling there was an issue, as they would thrive like a normal hatchling until suddenly dropping dead after the third or fourth day.