hatchling tortoises in the wild

[Missy]

I have been thinking about hatchling tortoises in the wild. Mainly Leopard and Sulcata. If hatchlings spend most of their time in a burrow then how often do they come out to eat? How much sun do they get? Do they stay close to the burrow for protection? How deep/large is a hatchling burrow? In the wild I would think that the hatchling would have to eat dry grass as part of the diet but mine will not touch it. I can't seem to find any good articles on hatchlings in the wild. If anyone has a link I would love to read it. Any thoughts?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Missy:

I really doubt that very many people have seen hatchling tortoises in the wild. There isn't anything written up about them so everything is guesswork. I don't think they come out into the open very often and probably have to scrounge around to eat whatever they can find in their hiding place. You can GUESS that tortoises that lay large clutches of eggs like sulcata probably have a very high infant mortality rate, that's why they lay so many eggs per clutch.

 

[ascott]

Yvonne...I am so glad that someone else in the world (and someone who's opinion I value) believes as I do that some species of tortoise lay large clutches due to they lose so many of them....I laid claim to that belief here one time before and was corrected and told that has no bearing on the number of eggs in a clutch for some species as there is no basis in writing that proves that.....LOL....

Does not matter who the person was that disagreed as everyone is allowed and encouraged to their own opinion and all

Sorry went OT a moment with my comment here, but you just gave me a "right on" moment

Back on topic here now ...it is of course possible to hatch outdoors as it has been being done naturally for awhile . But in captivity where we want to know what is going on with our torts it would be a tricky (but not impossible) thing to do...I would imagine knowing where they were dropped...then protecting the nest (unless you are going to let nature do her thing in loss and gain) and doing some type of monitor of the nest for well up to a year to know when hatchlings emerge...then you would have the whole where did they go thing, you know? I ferreting adventure for sure....also there are studies that show hatchlings that were all natural don't have the same obvious yolk sac and egg tooth ...suggesting that they come to emerge a more formed and hearty hatchling....hmmmm? Hard to say I suppose until more readily available studies occur...IMHO

 

[DesertGrandma]

Has anyone ever put a cage over the nest and just let them hatch naturally? The cage so that when they do emerge they don't get eaten by something before they are found. Just a thought.

 

[Redstrike]

Yvonne sums it up pretty nicely here - we don't know much about hatchlings because they are difficult to find on the landscape. Further, tracking hatchlings could result in greater mortality due to stress and possibly increasing predation (we could make them more conspicuous with a radio tag).

I attached a couple articles that might interest you, neither are specific to Sulcatas but might give you a broader perspective on hatchling survival.

The bottom line is, a lot die.

 

[Missy]

So if guessing is correct than a hatchling eats very little in the beginning? I would think that bugs might be in the burrow so I wonder if they start off eating bugs, hmmm. So do all the hatchlings stay in the nest for a while or do they go out and dig one themselves. I would think that would be dangerous. I feed Dayo 2 times a day and thought I would do this for the first year but I find myself thinking this might be to much, altho she always eats everything I put on the rock. Hmmm a lot to ponder.

 

[Tom]

I agree that Yvonne is right on here. Not much is known. HOWEVER, here are a couple of things I just learned from a breeder:

Thing 1: When they hatch in the ground, they stay down there for a long time before digging out. They usually dig out during a rain. While they are down there they eat their shells, some dirt, and the poop that Mom intentionally leaves behind for them.

Thing 2: My breeder friend actually knows a guy who studied leopard hatchlings in the wild. I was relaying to him how nobody knows what hatchlings do or eat, and he says, "Oh, I do..." My jaw dropped and I asked him what he knew, and HOW he knew. He told me of his field researcher friend and he told me that they hide a lot and eat "POOP"! Mammal poop usually. Makes perfect sense. The African hoofstock are eating exactly what a sulcata or a leopard needs, and they are kind enough to pre chew it and start digesting it for the little baby tortoises too. Guess what Mazuri looks and smells like when you soak it?

Fun stuff, huh? Anybody remember the thread where somebody asked if it was okay for their sulcata to eat the goat poop in their yard? Turns out it might have been the best, and most "natural", diet of all.

 

[DeanS]

I agree that Yvonne is right on here. Not much is known. HOWEVER, here are a couple of things I just learned from a breeder:

Thing 1: When they hatch in the ground, they stay down there for a long time before digging out. They usually dig out during a rain. While they are down there they eat their shells, some dirt, and the poop that Mom intentionally leaves behind for them.

Thing 2: My breeder friend actually knows a guy who studied leopard hatchlings in the wild. I was relaying to him how nobody knows what hatchlings do or eat, and he says, "Oh, I do..." My jaw dropped and I asked him what he knew, and HOW he knew. He told me of his field researcher friend and he told me that they hide a lot and eat "POOP"! Mammal poop usually. Makes perfect sense. The African hoofstock are eating exactly what a sulcata or a leopard needs, and they are kind enough to pre chew it and start digesting it for the little baby tortoises too. Guess what Mazuri looks and smells like when you soak it?

Fun stuff, huh? Anybody remember the thread where somebody asked if it was okay for their sulcata to eat the goat poop in their yard? Turns out it might have been the best, and most "natural", diet of all.

Yeah! Makes perfect sense...and we have dabbled in that theory before! Nice to know there's fact behind it! I imagine the ones fortunate enough to find carnivore scat are the ones growing to larger sizes...yes?!?!?

 

[Missy]

Very interesting Tom. Gross but interesting

 

[Laura]

so,, maybe we overfeed babies and they get the wrong stuff.. and that is one reason so many die....

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I agree that Yvonne is right on here. Not much is known. HOWEVER, here are a couple of things I just learned from a breeder:

Thing 1: When they hatch in the ground, they stay down there for a long time before digging out. They usually dig out during a rain. While they are down there they eat their shells, some dirt, and the poop that Mom intentionally leaves behind for them.

Thing 2: My breeder friend actually knows a guy who studied leopard hatchlings in the wild. I was relaying to him how nobody knows what hatchlings do or eat, and he says, "Oh, I do..." My jaw dropped and I asked him what he knew, and HOW he knew. He told me of his field researcher friend and he told me that they hide a lot and eat "POOP"! Mammal poop usually. Makes perfect sense. The African hoofstock are eating exactly what a sulcata or a leopard needs, and they are kind enough to pre chew it and start digesting it for the little baby tortoises too. Guess what Mazuri looks and smells like when you soak it?

Fun stuff, huh? Anybody remember the thread where somebody asked if it was okay for their sulcata to eat the goat poop in their yard? Turns out it might have been the best, and most "natural", diet of all.

Yeah! Makes perfect sense...and we have dabbled in that theory before! Nice to know there's fact behind it! I imagine the ones fortunate enough to find carnivore scat are the ones growing to larger sizes...yes?!?!?

Interesting and logical.....

 

[Tom]

so,, maybe we overfeed babies and they get the wrong stuff.. and that is one reason so many die....

I don't now and never have had a problem with any babies of any species dying. I think in the cases where babies die it is most often due to some set up error, somewhere along the way. Too dry, too cold, etc...

---

That sounded argumentative. I did not mean it that way. What I mean is that in most cases when a baby dies, it can be traced back to some human error. I do know that are certain percent of babies are hatched with some weird anomaly and just are not going to make it no matter what. But I think that percentage is very small. Much smaller than the number of babies that we see die off. At least that is what I have observed over the years.

I didn't mean to "jump" you there Laura. I did not take what you said personally at all, and mean you no offense.

 

[Missy]

Laura, that is why I started this thread. I think we have to just except that we can't replicate the exact way that they grow in the wild. I agree with the above that in the wild more hatchlings die than in captivity. We protect them and give them food and water and warmth. I would guess that captive bred tortoises are larger than wild tortoises of the same age. I guess in 100 years tortoises lovers will know how good of a job we did. Makes me want to go to Africa and study hatchlings,LOL. I can dream

 

[dmmj]

You don't have to go to africa, here in CA biologists study California desert tortoises in the wild. Through out the year they study them from the head start program, to collecting eggs and incubating them, to setting up mini habitats to see how they grow, sadly there is little to no info available on the net. At our last CTTC meeting we had a great DVD on some of the studies. Granted they don't know everything but the things they have learned is quite impressive. some of the things they have learned is the high humidity in the tortoise's burrows.