Heat Without Light

[Yvonne G]

I was looking through the Bearded Dragon Forum this a.m. and they were talking about "the Revolutionary Infrared A & B" deep heat projector put out by Arcadia:

The Revolutionary Infrared A & B Deep Heat Projector

The new Heat Projector projects infrared A & B deep into the muscle tissues in a way that mimics the energy from the sun to power your reptiles naturally.

www.arcadiareptile.com

How come none of us has been talking about this item?

I'd be interested to know what you think of it. @Markw84 @Kapidolo Farms @Toddrickfl1 @ZEROPILOT @Tom

 

[jsheffield]

I have one, running through a thermostat, making some high-quality heat for my Redfoot, Darwin... I've heard good things about the type of heat it produces, but it actually does produce some light along with the heat... a dull reddish glow.

Jamie

 

[Tom]

Its a solution without a problem. I've not seen or heard anything about it that is better than what I'm already doing.

And I don't like nighttime heat sources that produce light.

 

[turtlesteve]

I am actually quite interested in the concept but I do not like the implementation.

It is possible that the wavelength of IR makes a difference. But I do not like the incandescent source. This will throw off all IR wavelengths including many that are absorbed at the skin surface, not to mention the visible light. There are just better ways to do this, but nobody has done it yet.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I use bright light, low heat options for my Chameleons.
The CHAMELEONFORUM.COM has not mentioned them.
Maybe they'd work for desert lizards and snakes?
I do not keep any tortoises indoors.
@Markw84 can likely speak about these in detail. I can not.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I have one, running through a thermostat, making some high-quality heat for my Redfoot, Darwin... I've heard good things about the type of heat it produces, but it actually does produce some light along with the heat... a dull reddish glow.

Jamie

I used to rely on "black" heat bulbs in my tortoise night houses simply because I could tell at a glance if they were indeed working due to the faint purplish glow.
Unfortunately, they always seemed to blow any time I needed them to work.
My CHE have lasted a very long time. They're so reliable that I no longer check them much at all.
Y'all are dealing with something I'm not: Actual cold temperatures.
Different lighting might be a great option for different situations.
I'm only against black night time incandescent heat bulbs because of what I've observed. They aren't reliable.
We all know about MVBs.
Aside from that...If it works and you're having success with it, great.

 

[jsheffield]

I'm a big fan of the CHEs I've been running in various enclosures... they seem a simple, effective, and cheap answer to providing reliable heat for my torts.

Jamie

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I have seen the deep heat projectors directly on the Arcadia web site and have heard much discussion about them on a Facebook page called 'reptile lighting'. I don't think I could find a better response than @Tom 's
"Its a solution without a problem. I've not seen or heard anything about it that is better than what I'm already doing.
And I don't like nighttime heat sources that produce light."

I was talking with @Markw84 about this very thing this last weekend. I may not be getting his quote right, but the concept as I understand is... IR A and IR B versus IR C is about penetration versus absorption. IR C provides absorption heat over penetrating heat. Penetrating can be associated with tissue damage, absorption accomplishes body temperature elevation.

A practical thing we can all observe is the use of rocks, and pavement that animals seek out to increase their body temp. The heat off the rock or pavement is IR C. If you have illuminating light during the day, and an IR C heat source, you are accomplishing the task, heating the animal & environment and keeping normal behavior. I prefer to accomplish this with radiant heat panels, you'll never get burned by one. You can burn yourself with a ceramic heat emitter. AND at night the RHP is not using any visible light like a CHE.

You can use a two temp thermostat for an RHP for a night time lower ambient temp, or simply use two RHP's each on a thermostat, with the day time at a higher temp than the night time.

This difference between the IR A, IR B, and IR C has come up in conversation on the Facebook group I mention, the resulting answer was dismissive. So, Tom's "solution without a problem" may well be in the minds of those folks that are talking this product up for night time heat. As for day time heat, it might well be a good option.

 

[method89]

I have seen the deep heat projectors directly on the Arcadia web site and have heard much discussion about them on a Facebook page called 'reptile lighting'. I don't think I could find a better response than @Tom 's
"Its a solution without a problem. I've not seen or heard anything about it that is better than what I'm already doing.
And I don't like nighttime heat sources that produce light."

I was talking with @Markw84 about this very thing this last weekend. I may not be getting his quote right, but the concept as I understand is... IR A and IR B versus IR C is about penetration versus absorption. IR C provides absorption heat over penetrating heat. Penetrating can be associated with tissue damage, absorption accomplishes body temperature elevation.

A practical thing we can all observe is the use of rocks, and pavement that animals seek out to increase their body temp. The heat off the rock or pavement is IR C. If you have illuminating light during the day, and an IR C heat source, you are accomplishing the task, heating the animal & environment and keeping normal behavior. I prefer to accomplish this with radiant heat panels, you'll never get burned by one. You can burn yourself with a ceramic heat emitter. AND at night the RHP is not using any visible light like a CHE.

You can use a two temp thermostat for an RHP for a night time lower ambient temp, or simply use two RHP's each on a thermostat, with the day time at a higher temp than the night time.

This difference between the IR A, IR B, and IR C has come up in conversation on the Facebook group I mention, the resulting answer was dismissive. So, Tom's "solution without a problem" may well be in the minds of those folks that are talking this product up not night time heat. As for day time heat, it might well be a good option.

@Markw84 's answer can be found in this thread. It was enough for me to stop using it.

Arcadia deep heat projector

I have recently purchased the Arcadia deep heat projector bulbs. They produce no light and are said to produce a broad infrared spectrum that other bulbs can't do and mimics the sun. Has anyone else used these as a heat source? IF so what are your experiences with them? My hatchings seem to...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[turtlesteve]

I personally am not aware that any significant tests have been done on tortoises, so it’s all an academic discussion at this point.

However, I do think there is a reason to consider the concept. The natural solar spectrum at the surface of the planet consists of a whole spectrum of IR wavelengths. Almost all of the natural IR that reptiles would use (in terms of energy) would be wavelengths that are deeply penetrating, and mostly IR-A. This happens because the readily absorbed wavelengths are filtered out by water vapor in the air.

The problem is, no heat bulbs can mimic this; the wavelengths filtered out in nature are present in artificial heat sources. There is good reason to suspect that these extra wavelengths could cause harm; they carry a lot of energy and are absorbed at a very shallow depth in tissue. For example, the 1.4 micron absorption peak of water at the IR-A / IR-B boundary is of particular concern.

So my position is nuanced; I share concern that these bulbs could cause harm. However, I am also not ready to dismiss the concept of using “penetrating” IR if it could be done properly. However, to make a fair test, you would need an IR bulb that provides only wavelengths in atmospheric IR “windows” meaning it could not be a black body source. In my opinion the right way to test such a thing would be to use this hypothetical IR bulb alongside LED and T5 UV, and use ambient heating (e.g. long wave IR-C) at night. This is on my list of things to maybe test one day.

Steve

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Those bulbs exist, one where the light passes through a water layer. Very expensive.

Also consider microclimate and tortoise behavior. Do they utilize all that range of spectrum that they can access or do the 'manage' their exposure. My awareness is that they manage their exposure.

I personally am not aware that any significant tests have been done on tortoises, so it’s all an academic discussion at this point.

However, I do think there is a reason to consider the concept. The natural solar spectrum at the surface of the planet consists of a whole spectrum of IR wavelengths. Almost all of the natural IR that reptiles would use (in terms of energy) would be wavelengths that are deeply penetrating, and mostly IR-A. This happens because the readily absorbed wavelengths are filtered out by water vapor in the air.

The problem is, no heat bulbs can mimic this; the wavelengths filtered out in nature are present in artificial heat sources. There is good reason to suspect that these extra wavelengths could cause harm; they carry a lot of energy and are absorbed at a very shallow depth in tissue. For example, the 1.4 micron absorption peak of water at the IR-A / IR-B boundary is of particular concern.

So my position is nuanced; I share concern that these bulbs could cause harm. However, I am also not ready to dismiss the concept of using “penetrating” IR if it could be done properly. However, to make a fair test, you would need an IR bulb that provides only wavelengths in atmospheric IR “windows” meaning it could not be a black body source. In my opinion the right way to test such a thing would be to use this hypothetical IR bulb alongside LED and T5 UV, and use ambient heating (e.g. long wave IR-C) at night. This is on my list of things to maybe test one day.

Steve

 

[method89]

Those bulbs exist, one where the light passes through a water layer. Very expensive.

Also consider microclimate and tortoise behavior. Do they utilize all that range of spectrum that they can access or do the 'manage' their exposure. My awareness is that they manage their exposure.

But without the light, do they even know they are being exposed?

 

[turtlesteve]

Those bulbs exist, one where the light passes through a water layer. Very expensive.

Also consider microclimate and tortoise behavior. Do they utilize all that range of spectrum that they can access or do the 'manage' their exposure. My awareness is that they manage their exposure.

Yes, I 100% agree that they would manage their exposure in the wild. We likely cannot expect them to manage situations that are highly unnatural. In addition to UV-A at night, this would also apply to strong UV without bright visible light / heat, or the use of under-tank heaters.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

what?

But without the light, do they even know they are being exposed?