Help! Emergency egg-laying questions!

[Madeline_]

Hi all, one of my recently-adopted 13-year-old leopard tortoises is unexpectedly laying eggs! We've only had them less than a month. Their previous owners were certain that they were both female, but we don't know for sure. They were kept together for their entire lives until we got them three weeks ago, and we've kept them separate since we got them during the day--unfortunately we've had to put them up together on cold nights due to not having found this forum until after adoption! My concern is keeping the tortoise safe (not worried about keeping the eggs). Unfortunately, she's picked a bad time, I found her digging when I went out to put her in her indoor enclosure for the night. It will drop to a low of 59 degrees F around 7 am tomorrow (it will be a safe temperature for about the next 6 hours.) I have some questions if anyone has answers:

1. Do we need to keep her above a certain temperature, and do we need to keep her dry while laying? It is raining unfortunately and she's in an uncovered area of the enclosure.
2. How long does it take to lay the eggs? I searched the forum and saw that the best thing to do is catch the eggs, but I don't know how to time that exactly. Not sure how long she's been digging, but the hole is pretty deep. 4 hours ago she hadn't started digging yet. She seems to peeing down the hole?
3. After she buries the empty hole, do we need to do anything to keep her from noticing that the eggs are gone later?

Appreciate any and all advice, thanks all!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@Tom

 

[Tom]

Hi all, one of my recently-adopted 13-year-old leopard tortoises is unexpectedly laying eggs! We've only had them less than a month. Their previous owners were certain that they were both female, but we don't know for sure. They were kept together for their entire lives until we got them three weeks ago, and we've kept them separate since we got them during the day--unfortunately we've had to put them up together on cold nights due to not having found this forum until after adoption! My concern is keeping the tortoise safe (not worried about keeping the eggs). Unfortunately, she's picked a bad time, I found her digging when I went out to put her in her indoor enclosure for the night. It will drop to a low of 59 degrees F around 7 am tomorrow (it will be a safe temperature for about the next 6 hours.) I have some questions if anyone has answers:

1. Do we need to keep her above a certain temperature, and do we need to keep her dry while laying? It is raining unfortunately and she's in an uncovered area of the enclosure.
2. How long does it take to lay the eggs? I searched the forum and saw that the best thing to do is catch the eggs, but I don't know how to time that exactly. Not sure how long she's been digging, but the hole is pretty deep. 4 hours ago she hadn't started digging yet. She seems to peeing down the hole?
3. After she buries the empty hole, do we need to do anything to keep her from noticing that the eggs are gone later?

Appreciate any and all advice, thanks all!

Hello and welcome to the forum.
1. I put a tall ladder over my ladies when they lay in winter and hang a 250 watt CHE. The distance depends on the temperature and the size of the tortoise, but somewhere around 20-24 inches makes a nice warm area with no light. Since you probably don't have a couple of those laying around, use any sort of heat lamp or an infrared 250 watt chicken brooder bulb in a wide hood.

If it gets too cool, they slow down so much that they can't finish laying. Keep her warm, but try not to disturb her as much as possible. If they are not allowed to finish, or if they feel too bothered, they can get egg bound.

I've never had to deal with rain, but I'd tie an umbrella to the ladder somehow or other.

2. It can take 3-10 hours. Depends on many variables. I prefer to let them finish laying, bury their nest and walk away. I don't like trying to catch the eggs. I "feel" like it disturbs them too much. Having said that, one of my mentors had me catching eggs out of an adult Galapagos tortoise in Florida. He prefers to catch them because the raccoons and other critters will move in and get them if he doesn't. This did not seem to bother her at all. Maybe it varies by species, or maybe I'm being overly cautious due to lack of experience. I think everyone has a lack of experience compared to this guy, except maybe Zovick.

They empty their water reservoir into the hole to soften up the soil/dirt, add humidity to the nest, and help to properly bury and cover it all when they are done. Soak her daily for a week or two to make sure she is rehydrated after laying.

3. No. They walk away and they don't care. You could dig up the nest tomorrow right in front of her and eat the eggs and it would mean nothing to the tortoise.

Fun fact: Leopards can store sperm for up to five years and make fertile eggs.

All your question are welcome. I'll give you my phone number if you want to converse and get more info quickly. Here is a thread that will help with the next steps:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Madeline_]

Hello and welcome to the forum.
1. I put a tall ladder over my ladies when they lay in winter and hang a 250 watt CHE. The distance depends on the temperature and the size of the tortoise, but somewhere around 20-24 inches makes a nice warm area with no light. Since you probably don't have a couple of those laying around, use any sort of heat lamp or an infrared 250 watt chicken brooder bulb in a wide hood.

If it gets too cool, they slow down so much that they can't finish laying. Keep her warm, but try not to disturb her as much as possible. If they are not allowed to finish, or if they feel too bothered, they can get egg bound.

I've never had to deal with rain, but I'd tie an umbrella to the ladder somehow or other.

2. It can take 3-10 hours. Depends on many variables. I prefer to let them finish laying, bury their nest and walk away. I don't like trying to catch the eggs. I "feel" like it disturbs them too much. Having said that, one of my mentors had me catching eggs out of an adult Galapagos tortoise in Florida. He prefers to catch them because the raccoons and other critters will move in and get them if he doesn't. This did not seem to bother her at all. Maybe it varies by species, or maybe I'm being overly cautious due to lack of experience. I think everyone has a lack of experience compared to this guy, except maybe Zovick.

They empty their water reservoir into the hole to soften up the soil/dirt, add humidity to the nest, and help to properly bury and cover it all when they are done. Soak her daily for a week or two to make sure she is rehydrated after laying.

3. No. They walk away and they don't care. You could dig up the nest tomorrow right in front of her and eat the eggs and it would mean nothing to the tortoise.

Fun fact: Leopards can store sperm for up to five years and make fertile eggs.

All your question are welcome. I'll give you my phone number if you want to converse and get more info quickly. Here is a thread that will help with the next steps:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you so much for all the info, this was super helpful!
1. We've got two 100W CHEs that we'll hang over her from an A-frame ladder. My husband is running to Walmart to grab a pop-up canopy to put over the ladder to keep the rain off, but for now, I've got an umbrella over her. She is definitely slowing down as it starts to cool down to the high-60s, so we will be careful to not disturb her any further once we've got her warmed up.

2. Thank you for the time estimate, and the recommendation to let her bury the eggs. And I'm not surprised that she'll be dehydrated, thanks for the recommendation to soak her.

3. We will dig them up tomorrow (and not eat them haha).

Lastly, can leopard tortoises lay unfertilized eggs? Their previous owners were convinced they are both female, and were keeping them together. (They ordered them from a breeder and my understanding is that they requested two females. They both have a flat plastron, small/ short tail, long back toenails). The previous owners said that the two of them have never been around another tortoise. If they don't lay unfertilized eggs, I'm assuming that either they have been around another tortoise, or my other tortoise is male (which I should probably figure out, even though I keep them separate).

Thanks again for your response, I really appreciate it!

 

[Tom]

Thank you so much for all the info, this was super helpful!
1. We've got two 100W CHEs that we'll hang over her from an A-frame ladder. My husband is running to Walmart to grab a pop-up canopy to put over the ladder to keep the rain off, but for now, I've got an umbrella over her. She is definitely slowing down as it starts to cool down to the high-60s, so we will be careful to not disturb her any further once we've got her warmed up.

2. Thank you for the time estimate, and the recommendation to let her bury the eggs. And I'm not surprised that she'll be dehydrated, thanks for the recommendation to soak her.

3. We will dig them up tomorrow (and not eat them haha).

Lastly, can leopard tortoises lay unfertilized eggs? Their previous owners were convinced they are both female, and were keeping them together. (They ordered them from a breeder and my understanding is that they requested two females. They both have a flat plastron, small/ short tail, long back toenails). The previous owners said that the two of them have never been around another tortoise. If they don't lay unfertilized eggs, I'm assuming that either they have been around another tortoise, or my other tortoise is male (which I should probably figure out, even though I keep them separate).

Thanks again for your response, I really appreciate it!

What you described sounds like two females. They can lay eggs that are infertile, but they usually don't lay at all if there is no male present. They can also dig nest holes, not lay any eggs, and then fill the nest hole back in as if there were eggs there. This is somewhat common.

Breeders cannot predict the sexes very well. Only one species has been studied, sulcatas, and for them, we absolutely know the temperatures at which to get all females, all males, or a mix, BUT... this assumes the breeder has lab grade accurate equipment with which to incubate, and almost no one does. I don't. The correct TSD (temperature sex determination) temps for all other species are being guessed at and inferred. If a breeder incubates on the warmer side, there should be more females. On the cooler side should produce ore males, but this is not guaranteed, and it seems to seldom work out that way.

Post pictures of the tail and anal scutes of your girls and we can confirm what you've got.

 

[Madeline_]

I will post pictures for gender determination as soon as I can.
Last night, she continued digging very slowly and eventually stopped. I left her alone and checked on her every hour or so. She stayed under the heat lamp over night and didn't move until around 8am. We went back out and found her away from the hole, somewhere else in her enclosure. We soaked her for a while in warm water mid-morning, and she's been eating fairly well. She's staying close to the hole, but I haven't found her over it since this morning.

Is there a way to know if she is egg bound? The fact that she hasn't continued digging today or covered the hole makes me think she may not have eggs. I'm thinking she was maybe digging and was going to repack the hole, but we disturbed to too much. I am hoping there is a way to see if she is egg bound so we can know for sure if she is alright or not.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Is there a way to know if she is egg bound?

If going to a vet is an option, you could take an x-ray. Though I am not sure if that is necessary quite yet. Let's see what others think.

 

[Madeline_]

Post pictures of the tail and anal scutes of your girls and we can confirm what you've got.

Here are some pictures of our other tortoise (who has not been digging an egg hole).

 

[Poketortoise]

Thank you so much for all the info, this was super helpful!
1. We've got two 100W CHEs that we'll hang over her from an A-frame ladder. My husband is running to Walmart to grab a pop-up canopy to put over the ladder to keep the rain off, but for now, I've got an umbrella over her. She is definitely slowing down as it starts to cool down to the high-60s, so we will be careful to not disturb her any further once we've got her warmed up.

2. Thank you for the time estimate, and the recommendation to let her bury the eggs. And I'm not surprised that she'll be dehydrated, thanks for the recommendation to soak her.

3. We will dig them up tomorrow (and not eat them haha).

Lastly, can leopard tortoises lay unfertilized eggs? Their previous owners were convinced they are both female, and were keeping them together. (They ordered them from a breeder and my understanding is that they requested two females. They both have a flat plastron, small/ short tail, long back toenails). The previous owners said that the two of them have never been around another tortoise. If they don't lay unfertilized eggs, I'm assuming that either they have been around another tortoise, or my other tortoise is male (which I should probably figure out, even though I keep them separate).

Thanks again for your response, I really appreciate it!

Yes they can and will lay unfertilized eggs, they produce them once they reach age weather they have been with a male or not! I know this tone fact due to It happen to me, my female laid eggs last year Never not once been with a male, had her since hatchling, then put male with her and she laid this year and I see chalking and red embryos after 2-4weeks