Help with enclosure - Leopard tortoise juveniles

[abi1056]

Hi guys

I have 2 leopard tortoises, aged between 1 and 2, they are currently 180g and 167g. I have followed this tortoise forum religiously In regards to lighting, heating, humidity and they are thriving, the only issue I am having is thay they are growing rapidly! I want to give them a new enclosure, im in the UK so the weather is intermittent here so outdoors isn't the best possibility at the moment.

My current enclosure is 5ft x 2ft, I have the UV bulb on between the hours of around 10 and 3 then just a standard bulb on along with their heat lamp through the day for 12 hours, the closed chamber means the heat stays nice and warm throughout the night.

Im struggling to find a closed chamber thats large enough to house them with enough room for them to wander around

Am I correct keeping them in a closed chamber or are they getting "old" enough to transition to an open chamber enclosure? Any advice is welcome

 

[TammyJ]

Hi and welcome!
You must have missed the parts here that very strongly advise against keeping any tortoises in pairs, so you'll be told to give each its own separate enclosure for its own good, healthy life with you.
Pictures would be great!

 

[abi1056]

Hi and welcome!
You must have missed the parts here that very strongly advise against keeping any tortoises in pairs, so you'll be told to give each its own separate enclosure for its own good, healthy life with you.
Pictures would be great!

Thank you for your response Tammy. I've seen mixed reviews online but trust nowhere other than hereeventually they will be separated as I've seen issues can develop, they have been together since hatchlings, no issues with bullying etc, from what I've seen on here leopards can do well in multiples for the first few yearsI haven't seen any other information that disregards this so id be so grateful if you could point me towards it (still learning my way around!). I will get some pictures shortly of the enclosure.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello friend! You’ve definitely got your hands full with two leopards in our climate, these guys will primarily have to be housed indoors most the year here, for their adult size, they’re each going to need adapted room sized spaces, this is likely going to take some creative thinking.

As touched on above, they are going to need separating,
tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about, breeders unfortunately sell pairs too often.
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. My point is, it’s not worth the risk to either tortoise, even if you don’t see out right aggression, this is an incredibly stressful housing situation, the stress is sometimes not easy to pick up on.

For their current age, I’d definitely continue with two closed chamber set ups, especially in our climate. There’s a few different ways to tackle this, what kind of space are you working with? There is a company in the uk called Southdown aquatics that build custom sized melamine vivariums, it’s certainly the more expensive route, but vivs are technically the most efficient closed chamber set ups, these models can be built to stack on one another. The main drawback is it’s going to be a big spend for something they’re each going to grow out of, melamine definitely isn’t a lifetime guarantee, Melamine isn’t your typical wood, it’s like a chipboard inside, coated with a water resistant finish, you do have to ensure you seal it really well with aquatic silicone, and I do recommend getting yourself some pond lining to place on the bottom as an extra barrier of protection, they are built really well and as long as you maintain the seal, they can last a very long time. Again, not a lifetime guarantee, even with the best sealing in the world, water can eventually make its way to the seams one way or another, which can sometimes cause a little bit of moisture damage. Ours is holding up really well, but I can see the tiniest bit of moisture damage by the doors because the runners do collect a bit of water when I open them, but our red foot is an incredibly humid species, I’m talking 80-100% humidity at all times.

Technically if wanting a lifetime guarantee with an enclosure you’d want to go for pvc/Polypropylene vivs, but I will warn you’d be looking at twice the price if not more. They are definitely something we’re looking at in the future though. In our climate, it’s more efficient for use to have a large closed chamber that’s easier to control temps and humidity(especially during cold spells), that opens up to her indoor ‘extension’ area via a ramp.
Depending on the kind of space you create, you may not need the large closed chamber section eventually, it’s just the most practical for us, and we have a species with lifetime high humidity requirements. It could be that when it comes to setting up your larger indoor spaces, they’d still benefit from a large closed chamber area that maintains your temperatures much easier, I say this because in the thicket of our winters, it can sometimes be difficult keeping ground temps where needed in a large room, sometimes they have to spend the majority of the day in the closed section so you know they’re staying warm enough, but they can be pretty good at knowing where to go when the temperatures are lower, you’ll probably find they will naturally gravitate towards that area for the most part when it’s colder, they can still be given the access to the rest of their indoor space.
This is just in my current experience of course, I guess you can kind of think of it like the room is their ‘outdoor’ space, and the closed bit is their ‘night box’ lol, except the ‘night box’ is mainly there as a back up for an area where the environment is easier to control, hopefully that all makes sense.

I have seen people who can build/adapt spaces that do manage to maintain ground temps year round, it’s outside of my current building skills, and where folks like @Anyfoot would be great advising.

Depending on your diy skills, you might find some more cost effective large closed chamber options in here

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope this helps! Do let me know if you need any uk links to products, welcome to the forum! Would love to see pics of your babies

 

[abi1056]

Hello friend! You’ve definitely got your hands full with two leopards in our climate, these guys will primarily have to be housed indoors most the year here, for their adult size, they’re each going to need adapted room sized spaces, this is likely going to take some creative thinking.

As touched on above, they are going to need separating,
tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about, breeders unfortunately sell pairs too often.
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. My point is, it’s not worth the risk to either tortoise, even if you don’t see out right aggression, this is an incredibly stressful housing situation, the stress is sometimes not easy to pick up on.

For their current age, I’d definitely continue with two closed chamber set ups, especially in our climate. There’s a few different ways to tackle this, what kind of space are you working with? There is a company in the uk called Southdown aquatics that build custom sized melamine vivariums, it’s certainly the more expensive route, but vivs are technically the most efficient closed chamber set ups, these models can be built to stack on one another. The main drawback is it’s going to be a big spend for something they’re each going to grow out of, melamine definitely isn’t a lifetime guarantee, Melamine isn’t your typical wood, it’s like a chipboard inside, coated with a water resistant finish, you do have to ensure you seal it really well with aquatic silicone, and I do recommend getting yourself some pond lining to place on the bottom as an extra barrier of protection, they are built really well and as long as you maintain the seal, they can last a very long time. Again, not a lifetime guarantee, even with the best sealing in the world, water can eventually make its way to the seams one way or another, which can sometimes cause a little bit of moisture damage. Ours is holding up really well, but I can see the tiniest bit of moisture damage by the doors because the runners do collect a bit of water when I open them, but our red foot is an incredibly humid species, I’m talking 80-100% humidity at all times.

Technically if wanting a lifetime guarantee with an enclosure you’d want to go for pvc/Polypropylene vivs, but I will warn you’d be looking at twice the price if not more. They are definitely something we’re looking at in the future though. In our climate, it’s more efficient for use to have a large closed chamber that’s easier to control temps and humidity(especially during cold spells), that opens up to her indoor ‘extension’ area via a ramp.
Depending on the kind of space you create, you may not need the large closed chamber section eventually, it’s just the most practical for us, and we have a species with lifetime high humidity requirements. It could be that when it comes to setting up your larger indoor spaces, they’d still benefit from a large closed chamber area that maintains your temperatures much easier, I say this because in the thicket of our winters, it can sometimes be difficult keeping ground temps where needed in a large room, sometimes they have to spend the majority of the day in the closed section so you know they’re staying warm enough, but they can be pretty good at knowing where to go when the temperatures are lower, you’ll probably find they will naturally gravitate towards that area for the most part when it’s colder, they can still be given the access to the rest of their indoor space.
This is just in my current experience of course, I guess you can kind of think of it like the room is their ‘outdoor’ space, and the closed bit is their ‘night box’ lol, except the ‘night box’ is mainly there as a back up for an area where the environment is easier to control, hopefully that all makes sense.

I have seen people who can build/adapt spaces that do manage to maintain ground temps year round, it’s outside of my current building skills, and where folks like @Anyfoot would be great advising.

Depending on your diy skills, you might find some more cost effective large closed chamber options in here

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope this helps! Do let me know if you need any uk links to products, welcome to the forum! Would love to see pics of your babies

Thank you so much for your response! This is great, I will certainly look at separating them and its certainly been on my radar but as they've both pretty much kept their distance, one sleeps burrowed in a corner and the other pretty much loves the humid hideyes humidity was my biggest worry as ive been trying to keep it quite high at all times so the fact they are growing so quickly and lovely (which I expected, but not so fast) but obviously as youve mentioned there, trying to find a closed chamber which is large enough has been near enough impossiblespace isnt exactly an issue, I will sit on a garden chair in the little room if I have tobut I also have spent well over £1000 just on the one enclosure and having gone out and bought all the wrong stuff after bad online advice until I came here! It is certainly hard to maintain the humidity in the UK without a closed chamber! But that is a great idea, I didnt think of that, they could have a closed chamber each and then an "outdoorsy" area!

I can't say I am AMAZING at DIY but my idea was to buy a large kallax unit (now 2) line with a pond liner, I can then have the vivs as a "closed chamber area" and then they are able to have somewhere as an outdoorsy area as they are very active most of the time and love a nibble on the plants but as the area is only 5ft x 2ft, I feel as though they are constantly having obstacles in the way once ive introduced the humid hide, plants etc so I just want to branch it out a little bit!

I will order another closed chamber this evening and then look at some DIY extensions!

I will certainly send some pictures shortly!!

 

[Tom]

Hi guys

I have 2 leopard tortoises, aged between 1 and 2, they are currently 180g and 167g. I have followed this tortoise forum religiously In regards to lighting, heating, humidity and they are thriving, the only issue I am having is thay they are growing rapidly! I want to give them a new enclosure, im in the UK so the weather is intermittent here so outdoors isn't the best possibility at the moment.

My current enclosure is 5ft x 2ft, I have the UV bulb on between the hours of around 10 and 3 then just a standard bulb on along with their heat lamp through the day for 12 hours, the closed chamber means the heat stays nice and warm throughout the night.

Im struggling to find a closed chamber thats large enough to house them with enough room for them to wander around

Am I correct keeping them in a closed chamber or are they getting "old" enough to transition to an open chamber enclosure? Any advice is welcome

Hello and welcome. You gotten great advice so far from everyone. I just wanted to leave this here for you. It explains the pair thing in more detail, and lots of other things too:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you so much for your response! This is great, I will certainly look at separating them and its certainly been on my radar but as they've both pretty much kept their distance, one sleeps burrowed in a corner and the other pretty much loves the humid hideyes humidity was my biggest worry as ive been trying to keep it quite high at all times so the fact they are growing so quickly and lovely (which I expected, but not so fast) but obviously as youve mentioned there, trying to find a closed chamber which is large enough has been near enough impossiblespace isnt exactly an issue, I will sit on a garden chair in the little room if I have tobut I also have spent well over £1000 just on the one enclosure and having gone out and bought all the wrong stuff after bad online advice until I came here! It is certainly hard to maintain the humidity in the UK without a closed chamber! But that is a great idea, I didnt think of that, they could have a closed chamber each and then an "outdoorsy" area!

I can't say I am AMAZING at DIY but my idea was to buy a large kallax unit (now 2) line with a pond liner, I can then have the vivs as a "closed chamber area" and then they are able to have somewhere as an outdoorsy area as they are very active most of the time and love a nibble on the plants but as the area is only 5ft x 2ft, I feel as though they are constantly having obstacles in the way once ive introduced the humid hide, plants etc so I just want to branch it out a little bit!

I will order another closed chamber this evening and then look at some DIY extensions!

I will certainly send some pictures shortly!!

No problem at all! Ah I’m sorry you got sold incorrect equipment! You definitely aren’t alone there unfortunately, I’m so glad you’ve made your way here.

A second closed chamber would be great for now, and at least it’ll provide each of them more individual space. The one year old should be ok in the 5x2 a little longer till you figure things out, but I’d personally go much bigger for your 2 year old, your one year old will be needing the upgrade too pretty soon.

Perhaps you could look into having two larger vivs built(there’s Southdown and another company who makes Polypropylene vivs, the Polypropylene isn’t cheap, but would last decades) and do something like we did with our limited indoor space here(you can use the panels to separate their areas);

A common tale

I’ve gone back n forth on whether to post this one or not. But with the more questions I get asked online, and the more threads I see relating to this issue(especially this time of year), it raises a topic I think should be talked about more. This post is discussing the reality of owning species...

tortoiseforum.org

Alternatively if you have a larger garden space, you could look into building a large insulated shed that you can section into two, it definitely wouldn’t be a cheap task, and isn’t a build I’ve personally attempted, but there’s some great folks on the forum that I’m sure would happily advise in the future

 

[TammyJ]

If I through some miracle was to be given 2 leopard tortoises, and if I lived in a cold country, (I am in Jamaica in the Caribbean) I would go buy 2 super large plastic storage containers and a portable greenhouse that can fit right over both of the containers, and get to work setting up the lights and other stuff.
Then I would have my two separate enclosures in a closed, warm, humid greenhouse inside my house.