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[laney]

Is it possible for a tort under a year to be sexually frustrated/confused????
I would never have thought so but the last 2days have been manic!! He is pretty well hung for his age the vet and me are sure he is a he, even though he is so young although obviously with growth things might turn out differently.
But the problem is he is now going around biting things, constantly following his older companion and biting her they have got on so well until now but I noticed a small bite mark out of the bigger tort (Harley's) mouth yesterday and caught Yoshi trying to bite her again today. Harley is so placid and gentil .
Nothing has changed with them, I just wondered if maybe Yoshi is starting to get confused about bloke stuff hehe.
I'm quite worried actually and have separated them as I don't want either of them hurt, Harley is twice the size of Yoshi so I'm surprised if its bullying.
They spend so much time together normally and explore together.

 

[Neal]

It sounds like normal mating behavior to me. If the female has an injury, I would suggest keeping the separate.

 

[laney]

Some pics of them just a few days ago

 

[Tom]

This is why tortoises should not be kept in pairs. Even in those pics the big one is corralling and intimidating the little one. Males walk along side the females and try to get in front of them. Then they bite or ram them. I the wild the female would eventually escape. In your enclosure there is nowhere to go to get away. They need to be separated before she really gets hurt. This is just normal Russian behavior.

 

[laney]

It sounds like normal mating behavior to me. If the female has an injury, I would suggest keeping the separate.

That's kind of what went through my head but Yoshi is only 7months and Harley is about 15months. Harley is just acting normal its little Yoshi that's acting all horny!! Is it possible for those kind of feelings that young??
I can't get a pic up of Harley's injury as I can only see it when her mouth is open, it doesn't seem to be bothering her and is dry and clean for now. It's a little triangle bite mark just before where her beak gets lower (top part). I'm hoping it will heal ok being where it is as I've heard on here of beak trimming. Fingers crossed!

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This is why tortoises should not be kept in pairs. Even in those pics the big one is corralling and intimidating the little one. Males walk along side the females and try to get in front of them. Then they bite or ram them. I the wild the female would eventually escape. In your enclosure there is nowhere to go to get away. They need to be separated before she really gets hurt. This is just normal Russian behavior.

Thanks Tom, I know that now my stupidity.
Although the pics look like that it is actually little Yoshi that's following big Harley, and again Yoshi that's been doing the biting. Harley is so placid. I've separated them though.

 

[Jacqui]

Yes, the little one even in these pictures to me, looks like the one doing the intimidation. Glad you have seperated them. Are those ages guess or you do for sure when they hatched?

 

[laney]

Yes, the little one even in these pictures to me, looks like the one doing the intimidation. Glad you have seperated them. Are those ages guess or you do for sure when they hatched?

gutted, but at least it's been noticed before it got worse.
I couldn't find any breeders in Scotland so got them from the most reputable exotics store I could find. They gave me hatch months for them so I'm hoping they are accurate.
I'm not that experienced so I don't know but I thought they had to be older(a good few years) to have mating behaviours???

 

[Neal]

I'm not that experienced so I don't know but I thought they had to be older(a good few years) to have mating behaviours???

It could be a display of dominance as well.

 

[CactusVinnie]

It's not mating behaviour, but dominance.
Anyway, they seem to have debut of pyramiding due to fast, unballanced growth, and many times the tortoises reach sexual maturity at much early age than normal.
Problem is that poor health and deformity results from fast growth, not only precocious sexual maturity... Their diet should be changed, shift on weeds!

 

[laney]

It's not mating behaviour, but dominance.
Anyway, they seem to have debut of pyramiding due to fast, unballanced growth, and many times the tortoises reach sexual maturity at much early age than normal.
Problem is that poor health and deformity results from fast growth, not only precocious sexual maturity... Their diet should be changed, shift on weeds!

U say "it's not mating behaviour" and go on to talk about "sexual maturity" that doesn't make sense to me.
Their shells looked this way when I got them and i have been working on slowly turning their diet around, hence why every plant pot in my house is growing weeds, although I have a lot to learn and always feel there is room for improvement. Dont seem to be doing much right though as it was only a few weeks ago that i was being told on the forum that harley was under weight!
I got Harley in march and Yoshi about 6weeks ago so I don't think the rapid growth you see has been done since they have been with me and Harley has some nice new growth.
Thanks for the comments and advice, they are separate now whatever the reasons were.

 

[ascott]

It's not mating behaviour, but dominance.

I believe what is meant here is he agrees not sexual issue alone, but a pair establishing who is boss--and with torts the prob is that one will be forced to submit and that one can suffer great illness and possibly worse...

Anyway, they seem to have debut of pyramiding due to fast, unballanced growth, and many times the tortoises reach sexual maturity at much early age than normal.

Also, I believe here he is simply observing that some pyramiding is taking place (did not say you are a failure and it is your fault just an observation)...which likely you are also aware...and then he goes onto make statement that with accelerated growth pyramiding is a liklier thing to occur and with rapid growth comes accelerated sexual maturity due to size in a tort plays a large role in sexual maturity vs age alone--so he was not saying anything bad, just trying to offer up this information---not saying that this is what is happening but simply sharing what can occur or accompany rapid growth...

Now, I believe along the lines as well that you have done well on separating them and I would just plan to set up two identical (equal) enclosures for each of them so that the bullying will no longer be an issue and this way they can pace themselves individually without the bad kind of stress...good change up...and hey, we did not all start out knowing today what we did not live yesterday....they should now be fine...and just make sure to keep the wound/injury clean and clear so that it can heal without issues...

Oh and Vinnie, if I have overstepped you in any way or have mistaken anything here, please do, by all means set it straight

 

[CactusVinnie]

No Angela, thanks for detailing my too quick answer ! I should have not put those afirmations that close without more details.

Yes Laney, not yet mating, but in fact, dominance behaviour is very similar to the mating one: you will see tortoises of both sexes mounting other tortoises regardless of their sex- even female on male- and exhibit the same opened mouth and squeak.
Fast growth- the light coloured new growth is excessive; as they grow a reasonable 1-3mm wide growth-lines per season, the new growth pigmentates and does not appear as obvious as in your- and others- Russians.
You can be sure that they were not kept on weed diet before, they cannot get that way using right food. Not too bad yet, you can make fine looking and healthy ones of them. Just add calcium and keep them outdoors, or at least with a quality UVB 5.0 bulb when indoors.

Underweight- that's not a problem, if they have new growth; it should be due to Russian variable body shape. Maybe- and rather this is the problem- they are lacking calcium -> low bone density. If good apetite, active and healthy looking, it is ok. Some graphics may indicate underweight, but if I took strictly by the numbers, none of my tortoises was fit for hibernation- but they were and that without doubt!
These tables are just guidelines with some tolerance in interpretation- a crazy, healthy, greedy gremlin that appear underweight on the ratio is no way unfit!!

Keep the good weed diet, stay away from some "greens"- Brassicaceae like collard, arugula etc. Search the popular name and see the family- cabbage family species should not be more than 5% of their diet, and they can do very well without them.

 

[laney]

Thanks ascot and cactusvinie,
Sorry I took what you said a bit personal last night was just in a panic and upset seing them be this way.
Yeah they were not on weeds from what I could see when I got them and I did point out to the shop Harley's unsmooth shell, yoshi's is a lot smoother and I am determined to keep it that way.
I'm growing weeds for them and they are on a mix of spring mix, cress, prealpin grass stuff, a little grated carrot normally, they get calcium powder in their food and have a cuttlefish that Yoshi loves but Harley hates. What UVB is best? I have a 5% in one enclosure and a 10% in the larger one until I can get to the store.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Carrot- just as a rare treat. Lots of vit. A in many vegetables, including their leaf diet. Hypervitaminosis A is quite ugly...
UVB 5 will do, is for temperate latitude reptiles; UVB 10 is for tropical sunny climate reptiles.

 

[ascott]

I love harmony....carry on

 

[dmmj]

Russian don't do well in pairs as you have witnessed. Mine are separate by gender, and they live in a outdoor enclosure, even though you have already done so, once an injury occurs they should be separated. Mine get a carrot once a month for beak maintenance, and nothing else resembling a fruit or vegetable. As you will come to realize in the tortoise world size matters not, when the hormones kick in. At that young age though I don't think it is hormones yet, more than likely someone trying to show who is the boss, as they would in the wild. Are you sure the smaller one is male? has he flashed?

 

[laney]

They have been separate since. The thing is I'm in doubt now that it even was a bite as a few days later I noticed a little chip out of the other side of Harley's mouth and it definitely wasn't there when they were together. Is it possible that new growth around her mouth is maybe quite soft and she could have bit her slate or something? It's not the slightly longer part of the beak its at either side just before it lowers. I'm always looking them over and it wasn't like that before. They are separate anyway although I feel like they kinda miss each other (I know people say about them not being social) they just seem sad now. They would explore together, bask, eat and then go their own ways, but I got a fright and I may have over reacted by separating them but it was a fright I don't ever want in the future.
I call Harley a she but could be either. Yoshi could still be a girl yet but the vet guessed a boy and it does seem quite long for his size and has a spurry bit on the end which made me think boy? But it could turn out differently, no flashing hehe.
Yoshi gets a little grated carot mixed in with his food now and again to tempt him with his lesser favourite foods but I will make it less frequent now I know it's not great. Harley doesn't like it so doesn't get. I seen that people have given pumpkin so I rushed out and bought one but haven't used it as I then thought maybe its not ok for Russians? Do you know?
Thanks