Hermanni b. question...

[Terry Allan Hall]

After researching the issue, and reading several conflicting opinions, I turn to rhe collective wisdom of the Tortoise Forum: How large does a hermanni b. have to be before she can breed/lay eggs? What is the minimum size that this can safely happen?

Thanks in advance.

 

[GBtortoises]

I have a female Eastern Hermann's that I got as a 1.5" yearling in 1992. Around 1997 or '98 (I forget) she produced two fertile eggs, her first eggs ever, she was 4.5". Today, at 19 years old she is just barely over 5.5 inches and lays clutches of 3-5 eggs, twice in the early summer. A long time ago another breeder told me that he had a female Eastern that was barely 4" lay a single fertile egg. I think the normal size they start producing fertile eggs in captivity is closer to 5.5-6" and at 6-8 years old, assuming normal growth rates and seasonal cycling. Adult size of the geographical population that your tortoise(s) is from in the wild probably plays into it to some degree too, i.e.-genetics.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I have a female Eastern Hermann's that I got as a 1.5" yearling in 1992. Around 1997 or '98 (I forget) she produced two fertile eggs, her first eggs ever, she was 4.5". Today, at 19 years old she is just barely over 5.5 inches and lays clutches of 3-5 eggs, twice in the early summer. A long time ago another breeder told me that he had a female Eastern that was barely 4" lay a single fertile egg. I think the normal size they start producing fertile eggs in captivity is closer to 5.5-6" and at 6-8 years old, assuming normal growth rates and seasonal cycling. Adult size of the geographical population that your tortoise(s) is from in the wild probably plays into it to some degree too, i.e.-genetics.

OK, thanks...reason why I asked is that I'm babysitting a young 4-3/4" male ("Archie"), that a buddy bought for his kid about a week after I bought Jennifer, from the same source, although I'm thinking he's at least a year, maybe two, older than her (I'm told she's probably from '06 or '07...the breeder has only recently started keep records, apparently).

Anyway, "Archie" has shown great carnal interest in Jennifer...she, otoh, runs from him, so Archie shall remain inside, except when I can supervise, until he goes home Sunday, while Jennifer and Ptolemy are outside in their enclosures.

Think I'd prefer to wait until she's 5-6", at least, and then, perhaps reptile romance can ensue, if I can verify that they're not related too closely (or find a male of my own, if they are). Ideally, in either case, I'd like to get 2 or 3 more females before introducing a male, so they can all enjoy his "gleeful appreciation"...

No idea where the parent stock originated, or even of all the parent stock originated from the same country...can definitely state these youngsters were born in Parker County, though...

 

[GBtortoises]

There main reason for not putting an inmature female together with a mature male, which your friends is at 4 3/4", is the fact the male can cause serious physical harm with his aggressive advances. Inmature females will constantly try to run from the male non stop whereas mature females will usually, eventually submit. This is especially true during the main breeding season which is late spring/early summer. Even at other times "out of season" a mature female will eventually submit to a male. Some will even occasionally mildly fight back. But an inmature female will only attempt to run and the experienced males know how to head them off and continue to bite and ram them. They will continue to do so relentlessly until a female submits or dissapears from view. It's not really a good idea to keep a male female pair together, a much better ratio would be one male to 2, 3 or more females. This takes the constant aggressive pressure off any one female.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

There main reason for not putting an inmature female together with a mature male, which your friends is at 4 3/4", is the fact the male can cause serious physical harm with his aggressive advances. Inmature females will constantly try to run from the male non stop whereas mature females will usually, eventually submit. This is especially true during the main breeding season which is late spring/early summer. Even at other times "out of season" a mature female will eventually submit to a male. Some will even occasionally mildly fight back. But an inmature female will only attempt to run and the experienced males know how to head them off and continue to bite and ram them. They will continue to do so relentlessly until a female submits or dissapears from view. It's not really a good idea to keep a male female pair together, a much better ratio would be one male to 2, 3 or more females. This takes the constant aggressive pressure off any one female.

Pretty much my thinking...guess Archie will just have to think pure thoughts () for a while longer, at least until I can purchase a few more females, likely next year!

Any way to verify how closely related these two might be? The guy who sold me Jennifer (and sold Archie to Jimmy) has 8 adult females, 2 adult males (one of the males seems to be hermanni hermanni, according to our zoo's expert), and several youngsters, ranging from 2" on up, all living in a 40' X 30' enclosure, so lots of breeding going on, and I'm not wanting to create any inbred tortoises...would blood tests tell anything?

 

[GBtortoises]

About the only way that you're going to able to verify how closely related they are without expensive and extensive DNA blood testing is to take the word of the person they originated from. I personally wouldn't think all that is necessary. It really doesn't matter anyway with tortoise breeding. Concerns of "inbreeding" are more of a concern with mammals and especially humans. It's considered a negative based mainly on human "moral standards" and has little to do with biological reasoning. Tortoises in wild populations surely inbreed at all different levels on a regular basis. Unless a specific tortoise has an obvious genetic weakness that you wouldn't want passed on to future generations I wouldn't be too concerned.

The real shame is if the guy does have a Western male mixed in with all the Easterns and is allowing it to breed with Eastern females. If that is the case, the breeders genetic subspecies pool has already been diluted.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

About the only way that you're going to able to verify how closely related they are without expensive and extensive DNA blood testing is to take the word of the person they originated from. I personally wouldn't think all that is necessary. It really doesn't matter anyway with tortoise breeding. Concerns of "inbreeding" are more of a concern with mammals and especially humans. It's considered a negative based mainly on human "moral standards" and has little to do with biological reasoning. Tortoises in wild populations surely inbreed at all different levels on a regular basis. Unless a specific tortoise has an obvious genetic weakness that you wouldn't want passed on to future generations I wouldn't be too concerned.

The real shame is if the guy does have a Western male mixed in with all the Easterns and is allowing it to breed with Eastern females. If that is the case, the breeders genetic subspecies pool has already been diluted.

OK, thanks.