Hermann's pyramiding?

[Zbutcher]

Hello Everyone,

I have 2 Hermann's and they are about 3 years old. I am very concerned on whether their pyramiding is really bad or if it is even anything to worry about or if you guys think it's really bad.

I am really worried! I hold their humidity at 50-70. Feed them twice a day. And I try to have as much variety. As of late I have been good with it but the last 1.5 year was store bought because I love in Canada. But now I source from mountain rose herb.

I have attached 2 pics. Please let me know!

Thank you!

 

[wellington]

No it's not bad but they are pyramided. Hopefully they aren't housed together? Tortoises should not be housed in pairs
If you post pics of the enclosures we can help you tweak it.

 

[wellington]

Oh and if you use a Mercury vapor bulb, stop using it. They cause pyramiding even in high humidity enclosures.

 

[Zbutcher]

Oh and if you use a Mercury vapor bulb, stop using it. They cause pyramiding even in high humidity enclosures.

WOAH WHAT?!?! I NEVER KNEW THAT HOLY. I did a ton of research and never knew that. What do you propose as the proper lighting to use?

I guarantee that's what caused it. I have the combo bulbs. I used powersun forever but now im using solarglo because I can't get the powersuns.

They are housed together. Can move them however. Does housing them together causing pyramiding? That'd be odd it would seem.

 

[Zbutcher]

Oh and if you use a Mercury vapor bulb, stop using it. They cause pyramiding even in high humidity enclosures.

As well, the window is south facing and they do get a decent amount of natural light from the sun.

 

[Tom]

Hello Everyone,

I have 2 Hermann's and they are about 3 years old. I am very concerned on whether their pyramiding is really bad or if it is even anything to worry about or if you guys think it's really bad.

I am really worried! I hold their humidity at 50-70. Feed them twice a day. And I try to have as much variety. As of late I have been good with it but the last 1.5 year was store bought because I love in Canada. But now I source from mountain rose herb.

I have attached 2 pics. Please let me know!

Thank you!

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. MVBs dry out the carapace even in high humidity enclosures.

You are using the wrong substrate and it is too dry. The enclosure also looks very dimly lit. This is not good for them. And I agree that they should not be housed together. The chronic stress causes all sorts of problems, and I do tend to see more pyramiding, all else considered, when I see a pair like this. Don't know why that would be, but there must be a stress component to it.

You researched the wrong info. Here is more to explain that. There is a temperate species care sheet and a breakdown of the heating and lighting at the bottom:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

I would like to add that your tortoises are gorgeous. Very nice looking.

 

[Zbutcher]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. MVBs dry out the carapace even in high humidity enclosures.

You are using the wrong substrate and it is too dry. The enclosure also looks very dimly lit. This is not good for them. And I agree that they should not be housed together. The chronic stress causes all sorts of problems, and I do tend to see more pyramiding, all else considered, when I see a pair like this. Don't know why that would be, but there must be a stress component to it.

You researched the wrong info. Here is more to explain that. There is a temperate species care sheet and a breakdown of the heating and lighting at the bottom:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Perfect man thank you!

Do you have a proper bulb recommendation?

I had no idea about that Christ that's so frustrating. Will it correct itself eventually and flatten out? So for separating, I can put a divider down the middle that's no problem.

The substrate is a mixture of a bunch of stuff. What's your substrate recommendations?

 

[Zbutcher]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. MVBs dry out the carapace even in high humidity enclosures.

You are using the wrong substrate and it is too dry. The enclosure also looks very dimly lit. This is not good for them. And I agree that they should not be housed together. The chronic stress causes all sorts of problems, and I do tend to see more pyramiding, all else considered, when I see a pair like this. Don't know why that would be, but there must be a stress component to it.

You researched the wrong info. Here is more to explain that. There is a temperate species care sheet and a breakdown of the heating and lighting at the bottom:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

I would like to add that your tortoises are gorgeous. Very nice looking.

Oh I also just saw your last comment haha thank you that's very sweet. Are you sure that the pyramiding is not super bad and can probably be corrected over time? I know it can't be reversed.

 

[Tom]

Oh I also just saw your last comment haha thank you that's very sweet. Are you sure that the pyramiding is not super bad and can probably be corrected over time? I know it can't be reversed.

You can't undo pyramiding that has already happened. All you can do is correct the conditions and help the new growth come in smoother. You will need a large closed chamber for this.

Dividing and enclosure down the middle doesn't work because they each need a large space, and they both need a basking area and a cooler side.

Bulb and substrate recommendations are in the linked info.

 

[Zbutcher]

You can't undo pyramiding that has already happened. All you can do is correct the conditions and help the new growth come in smoother. You will need a large closed chamber for this.

Dividing and enclosure down the middle doesn't work because they each need a large space, and they both need a basking area and a cooler side.

Bulb and substrate recommendations are in the linked info.

That's what I mean, if I correct it, I imagine the pyramiding will smooth out over time hey? Not due to reversal but just from widening.

Yeah, how much space per tortoise though? Currently both are in a 5'x4' tortoise table.

You're a legend! I'm so excited to get them properly going. Im so frustrated that I fell for the bad info.... I feel terrible like I've failed my little guys

 

[Tom]

Yeah, how much space per tortoise though? Currently both are in a 5'x4' tortoise table.

Eventually, both will need 4x8 feet indoors for winter, unless you start brumating them over winter and house them outside the rest of the year with a proper heated shelter.

I can't tell how big they are from the pics, but at 3 years old, they should be getting closer to full size. 5x3 might last another year or so, depending on current size and how fast they grow.

Everyone gets that wrong info. I did back in the 70s and 80s. Don't beat yourself up over it. Now you know better, and you will do better.

 

[Zbutcher]

Eventually, both will need 4x8 feet indoors for winter, unless you start brumating them over winter and house them outside the rest of the year with a proper heated shelter.

I can't tell how big they are from the pics, but at 3 years old, they should be getting closer to full size. 5x3 might last another year or so, depending on current size and how fast they grow.

Everyone gets that wrong info. I did back in the 70s and 80s. Don't beat yourself up over it. Now you know better, and you will do better.

Fully grown I know they will be 6-8 inches. So is length what I am measuring for or is it width as well to tell if they are fully grown?

Do you think the pyramiding will always be incredibly noticeable or will it correct itself pretty good? They are about 4-5 inches long

 

[wellington]

You measure length. The pyramidimg will look less obvious as they grow and smoother growth comes in. It's harder to get it to stop once it once started but can be done.
Uvb is best from a tube florescent. Arcadia is one of the best ones. A regular flood bulb is best for basking.
The mercury vapor bulbs used to be the best too use. Most everyone used them. We recommended them all the time on this forum. Then it was discovered by Tom I believe, how bad they were on pyramiding. So don't feel bad, most of us have been there. My leopards pyramiding is bad, but it's mostly just appearance.

 

[Tom]

Fully grown I know they will be 6-8 inches. So is length what I am measuring for or is it width as well to tell if they are fully grown?

Do you think the pyramiding will always be incredibly noticeable or will it correct itself pretty good? They are about 4-5 inches long

Measure their length. Put the front of their carapace against a wall with a tape measure under them and look straight down at the back to see their length.

There is no way to answer your pyramiding question. There are too many variables. Moving them into the high humidity conditions and keeping them well hydrated should make the new growth come in smoother and reduce the appearance of the existing pyramiding. To what degree is unanswerable. Maybe a lot, and maybe a little.

 

[Zbutcher]

You measure length. The pyramidimg will look less obvious as they grow and smoother growth comes in. It's harder to get it to stop once it once started but can be done.
Uvb is best from a tube florescent. Arcadia is one of the best ones. A regular flood bulb is best for basking.
The mercury vapor bulbs used to be the best too use. Most everyone used them. We recommended them all the time on this forum. Then it was discovered by Tom I believe, how bad they were on pyramiding. So don't feel bad, most of us have been there. My leopards pyramiding is bad, but it's mostly just appearance.

Yeah I mean that's totally fair. Don't leopards have pyramiding naturally?

 

[Zbutcher]

Measure their length. Put the front of their carapace against a wall with a tape measure under them and look straight down at the back to see their length.

There is no way to answer your pyramiding question. There are too many variables. Moving them into the high humidity conditions and keeping them well hydrated should make the new growth come in smoother and reduce the appearance of the existing pyramiding. To what degree is unanswerable. Maybe a lot, and maybe a little.

Makes total sense. I will do that. I'm going to try and redo all the lighting. I will follow your guide. I will also split them up.

 

[Zbutcher]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It is not caused by food. MVBs dry out the carapace even in high humidity enclosures.

You are using the wrong substrate and it is too dry. The enclosure also looks very dimly lit. This is not good for them. And I agree that they should not be housed together. The chronic stress causes all sorts of problems, and I do tend to see more pyramiding, all else considered, when I see a pair like this. Don't know why that would be, but there must be a stress component to it.

You researched the wrong info. Here is more to explain that. There is a temperate species care sheet and a breakdown of the heating and lighting at the bottom:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

I would like to add that your tortoises are gorgeous. Very nice looking.

I do notice you mention the zoo med LED UVB bulbs. Do you recommend this over the Arcadia t5? What's your suggestion? I know the LED would probably save a lot of power

 

[Tom]

I do notice you mention the zoo med LED UVB bulbs. Do you recommend this over the Arcadia t5? What's your suggestion? I know the LED would probably save a lot of power

The new LED UV bulbs hitting the market have not been real world tested long term. I have seen no problems with mine, but @Markw84 reported that at least some of them have too narrow a spectrum of the correct type of UVB and because of this, their bodies don't know when to stop producing the D3 precursors. I do not know if this applies to the ZooMed units or not. I'm hoping not because the ZooMed units have a bunch of different diodes for light in addition to the special UVB diodes.

The LED units do use less power, but they also generate less heat. In a normal enclosure in a normally temperature controlled house, that extra heat generated by an HO florescent tube can be helpful for getting the daytime ambient temp up where we want it. I use this technique in my cold garage over winter for the enclosure that lives there. In my heated reptile room, I have the opposite problem. I don't want any additional heat, so the LEDs serve me well there, at least until such time that I learn if they are harmful to use or not...

 

[Zbutcher]

The new LED UV bulbs hitting the market have not been real world tested long term. I have seen no problems with mine, but @Markw84 reported that at least some of them have too narrow a spectrum of the correct type of UVB and because of this, their bodies don't know when to stop producing the D3 precursors. I do not know if this applies to the ZooMed units or not. I'm hoping not because the ZooMed units have a bunch of different diodes for light in addition to the special UVB diodes.

The LED units do use less power, but they also generate less heat. In a normal enclosure in a normally temperature controlled house, that extra heat generated by an HO florescent tube can be helpful for getting the daytime ambient temp up where we want it. I use this technique in my cold garage over winter for the enclosure that lives there. In my heated reptile room, I have the opposite problem. I don't want any additional heat, so the LEDs serve me well there, at least until such time that I learn if they are harmful to use or not...

Perfect then I will use the T5. I have the problem of needing more heat because I'm in Canada. Plus that would be awesome if I don't need a CHE bulb for heat regulation in the room. I believe it's acceptable for heat to drop off at night to about 65 ish correct? Or do I also want heat at night?

 

[Zbutcher]

The new LED UV bulbs hitting the market have not been real world tested long term. I have seen no problems with mine, but @Markw84 reported that at least some of them have too narrow a spectrum of the correct type of UVB and because of this, their bodies don't know when to stop producing the D3 precursors. I do not know if this applies to the ZooMed units or not. I'm hoping not because the ZooMed units have a bunch of different diodes for light in addition to the special UVB diodes.

The LED units do use less power, but they also generate less heat. In a normal enclosure in a normally temperature controlled house, that extra heat generated by an HO florescent tube can be helpful for getting the daytime ambient temp up where we want it. I use this technique in my cold garage over winter for the enclosure that lives there. In my heated reptile room, I have the opposite problem. I don't want any additional heat, so the LEDs serve me well there, at least until such time that I learn if they are harmful to use or not...

As well I looked into kapidolo farms and unfortunately I don't think he ships to Canada but I did email him to verify.