Hibernating without indoor set up?

[AnimalLady]

Is it possible to hibernate a tort without an indoor set up? I was reading something that gave instructions on how to properly hibernate your tort, but the instructions only spoke of messing with the lighting. What about keeping the tort cold? Would I need a fridge? Temps can be funny with our winter here.

I don't really want to hibernate Mac but it's only because I'm unsure of it, and that's not fair.I I won't do it this winter because I think it's too soon, but maybe for next winter.

 

[leigti]

I wouldn't try to hibernate them outside. Seems way too risky to me.

 

[Jodie]

I intend to hibernate my Russians, and don't have an indoor enclosure. I will use their outdoor night box to bring them down. I will bring them in to actually hibernate in a beverage fridge specifically for them. Then use the box to warm them back up.
Will you bring him in for winter this year? It may take bright light and plenty of heat and soaks to keep him up. Don't let him sleep without the proper temps.
After rereading your post, I am not sure I understood the question.

 

[dmmj]

I hibernate my tortoises outside but in a shell to protect them from extreme weather and rain. If your weather is iffy at best a fridge might be the best way to go.

 

[leigti]

I intend to hibernate my Russians, and don't have an indoor enclosure. I will use their outdoor night box to bring them down. I will bring them in to actually hibernate in a beverage fridge specifically for them. Then use the box to warm them back up.
Will you bring him in for winter this year? It may take bright light and plenty of heat and soaks to keep him up. Don't let him sleep without the proper temps.
After rereading your post, I am not sure I understood the question.

I think that works because you still have control of the temperatures. No matter what it's doing outside you set the thermostat where you want it.

 

[AnimalLady]

I wouldn't try to hibernate them outside. Seems way too risky to me.

Everything I've read says the same. I was just wondering how I would do it. Since he's outdoors I don't have any lighting to I guess trick him? I read you're supposed to stop feeding for 2 weeks then do something with the Temps in the enclosure(I skimmed thru it). Then make sure to keep them cold. My guy isn't trying to hibernate. He wakes up every day on his own and then burrows down to sleep around 4ish.

 

[Jodie]

You must be some place with better tort weather than I. Lol. I have lights in my outdoor boxes for spring and fall. Sounds like yours sleeps outside. Even in summer it gets to cold at night here for that.

 

[Tom]

Everything I've read says the same. I was just wondering how I would do it. Since he's outdoors I don't have any lighting to I guess trick him? I read you're supposed to stop feeding for 2 weeks then do something with the Temps in the enclosure(I skimmed thru it). Then make sure to keep them cold. My guy isn't trying to hibernate. He wakes up every day on his own and then burrows down to sleep around 4ish.

How any of us goes about this is ENTIRELY dependent on our climate. Everyone must use a little different strategy. Someone in Phoenix will do it differently than the keeper in Clovis, CA, the keeper in Santa Clarita, CA or the person in Spokane Valley Washington.

Even way over in Florida, it eventually cools down. Because you won't ever get constantly cold enough and stay cold enough, you will need some help from some electric refrigeration, as I do here. The main things are to bring them down slowly, hydrate them well, and then keep them consistently cold all throughout the hibernation period. That last part is where you and I will have trouble with our 80 and 90 degree winter warm spells. I use a fridge to solve this problem.

Here is a thing I typed up on this subject for another member. It hits all the main points:

AZTorts asked:
↑
Do tortoises know when to stop eating in preparation for hibernation? Or are we supposed to know when to stop feeding them in preparation for hibernation? My turtles seem to be hibernating, haven't seen them in a few days. The three toed is the first to disappear, then the ornate a week or so later. My AZ desert tortoise yearlings still seem to want to eat, although not as much. It's still warm here though. I want to hibernate my tortoise yearlings inside but don't know when to do it. I put them out during the day still and bring them in in the late afternoon.
Could be either or both.

MY REPLY:

Here is a reply I did for someone else's thread yesterday about this subject. Maybe it will help you too AZTorts.

"They will not be able to hibernate at room temp. Its too warm. You will need to decide to either keep them up, or hibernate them properly. Right now they are in a bit of a "limbo", and that is not good. I've used the following methods for dozens of DTs from babies to adults, as well as many other tortoise and reptile species that come from areas with a natural hibernation period.

While I have kept hibernating species awake through winter and I know others have successfully done it too, it is my opinion that species that hibernate in the wild should also hibernate in captivity. It just needs to be done correctly. Leaving them outside to figure it out and deal with the rigors of winter in the small spaces (like backyards) that we stick them in, is not my idea of doing it "correctly". I know far too many that have died this way. Don't let these horror stories from people who did not properly prepare, or hibernate their animals in a safe, controlled way, scare you. Hibernation is totally natural and totally safe when a few simple guidelines are observed. Simple Guidelines:
1. Bring them down, and up, gradually.
2. Make sure their gut is empty before dropping temps. Two weeks of no food with the normal warm temps should do it.
3. Make sure they are well hydrated by soaking them, before and after hibernation.
4. Make sure the temperature is consistent and cold enough for the entire hibernation time.
5. Don't let them do it in a self dug burrow in your backyard. NOT safe!

To keep them up: You will need to keep them warm, day and night. The enclosure needs to be nice and bright too, so add a 6500K florescent tube, if need be. I set lights to come on an hour or two before the sun comes up and stay on for a good two hours after the sun goes down. Daily warm soaks, or every other day, seems to help convince their brains that its not sleepy time. I would still give them outside time all winter long as long as its sunny and warm-ish. The sun really helps and we have such nice mild winters here in SoCal.

To hibernate them: The dangerous parts of hibernation (flooding, burrow collapse, rodents, temperature extremes, etc..) can all be eliminated by bringing them inside into controlled conditions and prepping them correctly. While they have adapted to survive these conditions out in the wild for millennia, our back yards are not the wild. Not even close. The shallow burrows they construct in our yards are not enough to protect them from the whims of a cruel mother nature, and as Yvonne adeptly pointed out, many of them don't survive hibernation in the wild, or outdoors in captivity either. I have hibernated all ages of DTs using the following methods: It is often said that "tortoises do better outside". True some of the time in some instances, but not all of the time in all instances. Most babies actually do better inside most of the time. As such, when night temps really start to drop, as they did about two weeks ago, I bring small hibernating species of tortoises inside to their indoor set ups every evening. I feed them up for a good two or three weeks, and soak them daily or every other day. Then I leave the timers and heat and everything on and running, but I quit feeding them. I give them around two weeks with no food, daily soaks, and warm day time temps, as usual. After those two weeks, I start adjusting the light timers down and raise the fixtures a bit to lower basking temps. I let night temps drop as low as is practical for indoors. I'll do this for another week or two. Then I put them into their individual hibernacula. I use plastic shoe boxes, or something similar, with a couple of inches of substrate on the bottom. I keep them dry at this time. In the past I've used non-functioning fridges or freezers laid on their backs in a cool area to keep the shoe boxes in. Currently the floor of my garage stays around 50-55 all winter and I've used that for the last few years. The problem is that we keep having these weird warm winters with daily highs in the 80s or 90s sometimes, for days or weeks on end. Good for my non-hibernating species, but not so good for the hibernators. This year I'm getting them a dedicated fridge, so I don't have to worry about the weather and I won't have to try to fight the temperature outside. I'll set it to around 45 degrees F. I let first timers go for 8-10 weeks under these controlled conditions. Older ones will go for 12-16 weeks. I watch the temps, but I don't mess with them during hibernation. When the weather starts to warm up, I gradually warm up the fridge and let warmer air into the hibernation area, and at some point after a few days, I pull them out, soak them in shallow room temp water, and put them back into their indoor enclosures with no heat. Just room temp. I soak daily for a bout two weeks. After a few days, I will turn the lights on. I leave the fixtures at their higher adjustment at first and gradually, over the course of a few days, lower them back down to get the right basking temps. After the tortoises activity level comes up, and they start moving around more, I will begin offering food, and letting them run around in their outdoor pens on warmer days, but I still bring them in to escape the cold nights. For older/bigger tortoises that can't come back inside, I simply use an outdoor heated night box to do just about the same thing. The night box more or less takes the place of the indoor enclosure and gives me a way to keep them warmer at night while preparing for hibernation or coming out of it.

The above methods have worked perfectly for me for many years with a wide variety of reptile species. The only time I ever lost an animal during hibernation is when I took the advice of a very knowledgeable man, who didn't understand our climate, and let my tegus hibernate outside as he did in his climate. I lost two out of three that year. It was heartbreaking.

I don't have set dates for any of this, and I sort of go by "feel" and the weather on either end of hibernation. If we have a long summer with a warm fall, I wait longer to put them down. If we have an early spring, I wake them up sooner. Generally I try to get them down by December, and get them up sometime in March.


I know that is a lot to read. Please feel free to ask lots of questions. We will help you, whichever way you decide to go."

 

[AnimalLady]

You must be some place with better tort weather than I. Lol. I have lights in my outdoor boxes for spring and fall. Sounds like yours sleeps outside. Even in summer it gets to cold at night here for that.

I'm in Miami Pretty decent tort weather here. My guy does sleep outside, so far, everything is gravy. I've had no issues at all. Now that it should start cooling up (probably not a real cold snap till late November/December) I'm getting nervous.

I have a 60 gallon tub type thing. My plan is to set it up with topsoil and his hide and to use it only for cold nights. My question is this, inside my house we rarely turn on the heat (we like it cold) so it can get to be in the 60's maybe even 50's in my house, is that okay for him at night? Or do I need to get a heat lamp or something? I just need to be prepared because the unknowing is driving me mad.

 

[Jodie]

As long as you're keeping him up 60 at night is ok. I would get a CHE and put it on a thermostat. Some might disagree with me, but I don't let it get colder than 65 for my Russians. Unless they are hibernating of course.

 

[AnimalLady]

How any of us goes about this is ENTIRELY dependent on our climate. Everyone must use a little different strategy. Someone in Phoenix will do it differently than the keeper in Clovis, CA, the keeper in Santa Clarita, CA or the person in Spokane Valley Washington.

Even way over in Florida, it eventually cools down. Because you won't ever get constantly cold enough and stay cold enough, you will need some help from some electric refrigeration, as I do here. The main things are to bring them down slowly, hydrate them well, and then keep them consistently cold all throughout the hibernation period. That last part is where you and I will have trouble with our 80 and 90 degree winter warm spells. I use a fridge to solve this problem.

Here is a thing I typed up on this subject for another member. It hits all the main points:

AZTorts asked:
↑
Do tortoises know when to stop eating in preparation for hibernation? Or are we supposed to know when to stop feeding them in preparation for hibernation? My turtles seem to be hibernating, haven't seen them in a few days. The three toed is the first to disappear, then the ornate a week or so later. My AZ desert tortoise yearlings still seem to want to eat, although not as much. It's still warm here though. I want to hibernate my tortoise yearlings inside but don't know when to do it. I put them out during the day still and bring them in in the late afternoon.
Could be either or both.

MY REPLY:

Here is a reply I did for someone else's thread yesterday about this subject. Maybe it will help you too AZTorts.

"They will not be able to hibernate at room temp. Its too warm. You will need to decide to either keep them up, or hibernate them properly. Right now they are in a bit of a "limbo", and that is not good. I've used the following methods for dozens of DTs from babies to adults, as well as many other tortoise and reptile species that come from areas with a natural hibernation period.

While I have kept hibernating species awake through winter and I know others have successfully done it too, it is my opinion that species that hibernate in the wild should also hibernate in captivity. It just needs to be done correctly. Leaving them outside to figure it out and deal with the rigors of winter in the small spaces (like backyards) that we stick them in, is not my idea of doing it "correctly". I know far too many that have died this way. Don't let these horror stories from people who did not properly prepare, or hibernate their animals in a safe, controlled way, scare you. Hibernation is totally natural and totally safe when a few simple guidelines are observed. Simple Guidelines:
1. Bring them down, and up, gradually.
2. Make sure their gut is empty before dropping temps. Two weeks of no food with the normal warm temps should do it.
3. Make sure they are well hydrated by soaking them, before and after hibernation.
4. Make sure the temperature is consistent and cold enough for the entire hibernation time.
5. Don't let them do it in a self dug burrow in your backyard. NOT safe!

To keep them up: You will need to keep them warm, day and night. The enclosure needs to be nice and bright too, so add a 6500K florescent tube, if need be. I set lights to come on an hour or two before the sun comes up and stay on for a good two hours after the sun goes down. Daily warm soaks, or every other day, seems to help convince their brains that its not sleepy time. I would still give them outside time all winter long as long as its sunny and warm-ish. The sun really helps and we have such nice mild winters here in SoCal.

To hibernate them: The dangerous parts of hibernation (flooding, burrow collapse, rodents, temperature extremes, etc..) can all be eliminated by bringing them inside into controlled conditions and prepping them correctly. While they have adapted to survive these conditions out in the wild for millennia, our back yards are not the wild. Not even close. The shallow burrows they construct in our yards are not enough to protect them from the whims of a cruel mother nature, and as Yvonne adeptly pointed out, many of them don't survive hibernation in the wild, or outdoors in captivity either. I have hibernated all ages of DTs using the following methods: It is often said that "tortoises do better outside". True some of the time in some instances, but not all of the time in all instances. Most babies actually do better inside most of the time. As such, when night temps really start to drop, as they did about two weeks ago, I bring small hibernating species of tortoises inside to their indoor set ups every evening. I feed them up for a good two or three weeks, and soak them daily or every other day. Then I leave the timers and heat and everything on and running, but I quit feeding them. I give them around two weeks with no food, daily soaks, and warm day time temps, as usual. After those two weeks, I start adjusting the light timers down and raise the fixtures a bit to lower basking temps. I let night temps drop as low as is practical for indoors. I'll do this for another week or two. Then I put them into their individual hibernacula. I use plastic shoe boxes, or something similar, with a couple of inches of substrate on the bottom. I keep them dry at this time. In the past I've used non-functioning fridges or freezers laid on their backs in a cool area to keep the shoe boxes in. Currently the floor of my garage stays around 50-55 all winter and I've used that for the last few years. The problem is that we keep having these weird warm winters with daily highs in the 80s or 90s sometimes, for days or weeks on end. Good for my non-hibernating species, but not so good for the hibernators. This year I'm getting them a dedicated fridge, so I don't have to worry about the weather and I won't have to try to fight the temperature outside. I'll set it to around 45 degrees F. I let first timers go for 8-10 weeks under these controlled conditions. Older ones will go for 12-16 weeks. I watch the temps, but I don't mess with them during hibernation. When the weather starts to warm up, I gradually warm up the fridge and let warmer air into the hibernation area, and at some point after a few days, I pull them out, soak them in shallow room temp water, and put them back into their indoor enclosures with no heat. Just room temp. I soak daily for a bout two weeks. After a few days, I will turn the lights on. I leave the fixtures at their higher adjustment at first and gradually, over the course of a few days, lower them back down to get the right basking temps. After the tortoises activity level comes up, and they start moving around more, I will begin offering food, and letting them run around in their outdoor pens on warmer days, but I still bring them in to escape the cold nights. For older/bigger tortoises that can't come back inside, I simply use an outdoor heated night box to do just about the same thing. The night box more or less takes the place of the indoor enclosure and gives me a way to keep them warmer at night while preparing for hibernation or coming out of it.

The above methods have worked perfectly for me for many years with a wide variety of reptile species. The only time I ever lost an animal during hibernation is when I took the advice of a very knowledgeable man, who didn't understand our climate, and let my tegus hibernate outside as he did in his climate. I lost two out of three that year. It was heartbreaking.

I don't have set dates for any of this, and I sort of go by "feel" and the weather on either end of hibernation. If we have a long summer with a warm fall, I wait longer to put them down. If we have an early spring, I wake them up sooner. Generally I try to get them down by December, and get them up sometime in March.


I know that is a lot to read. Please feel free to ask lots of questions. We will help you, whichever way you decide to go."

THIS is what I read! Sorry I didn't remember it was written by you! It is VERY detailed.. but here's what caused my question.

You bring the torts indoors once it gets cold. You keep them on a normal warm day time, cooler night time schedule. Then you stop feeding them for 2 weeks, while still maintain that temp.. after that you slowly start making it colder for them. How do I do this if my tort is outdoors and I don't have lights to make it seem colder for him? The climate here is very unpredictable. Cold today. summer temps tomorrow. How would I get him to hibernate, also. Refrigerating him seems, so, weird. I do understand it is to maintain that stable cold temp. Would one of those tiny small fridges work, like the one for dorms? I cant see myself having a whole refrigerator for one tort.

 

[Jodie]

Will your day highs most always get to 80 or higher? Remember they have to be able to heat up over 80 to digest their food.

 

[AnimalLady]

Will your day highs most always get to 80 or higher? Remember they have to be able to heat up over 80 to digest their food.

No, I cannot guarantee this either. When we have a cold snap, it could possibly stay in the 50s/60s. Sun is still out and beaming though.

I think I need an inside set up, I think I need this pretty fast and I don't know what I can come up with FAST! I have a really really big tub, I think its like 60 gallons, would it be okay to set this up? It will only be for winter on cold days.

I didn't even think about this when I bought Mac, and I feel like a bad tort mom right now.

 

[Jodie]

Yes that will work fine for short periods. Get a CHE on a thermostat for night minimum temp, and a regular light bulb on a timer for heat during days he has to stay inside. You won't need to worry about UVB in your situation.

 

[AnimalLady]

Thanks Jodie!

 

[Tom]

My russians were all still pretty small last year. This year I won't be able to do the indoor thing. I will do it outdoors using this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/heating-an-outdoor-russian-night-box.116180/

Our climate here is unique in that we have cold nights, even when daytime temps are still in the 80s or 90s. Even in mid summer with 110 degree days, our night temps still drop to 65. Right now with 85-90 degree days, nights are starting to drop into the 40s. These cold nights shut tortoise appetites off like a faucet. Using my heated boxes outside, I can have "cool" nights for fall and spring, instead of "cold" nights. All the feeding and soaking will remain the same, until they go into their fridge.

In your area, a dry above ground box might work well for the same purposes. Something like this only smaller for a single russian:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Ask lots of questions on this topic. It needs more discussion.

 

[AnimalLady]

My russians were all still pretty small last year. This year I won't be able to do the indoor thing. I will do it outdoors using this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/heating-an-outdoor-russian-night-box.116180/

Our climate here is unique in that we have cold nights, even when daytime temps are still in the 80s or 90s. Even in mid summer with 110 degree days, our night temps still drop to 65. Right now with 85-90 degree days, nights are starting to drop into the 40s. These cold nights shut tortoise appetites off like a faucet. Using my heated boxes outside, I can have "cool" nights for fall and spring, instead of "cold" nights. All the feeding and soaking will remain the same, until they go into their fridge.

In your area, a dry above ground box might work well for the same purposes. Something like this only smaller for a single russian:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

Ask lots of questions on this topic. It needs more discussion.

Very interesting, is there anything on the market that I can just buy and plug in and call it a day? Your drip loops remind me of the way my husband sets up his aquariums. ITs pretty much the same principle. What is the radiating heat pad thing on the top for? Wouldn't the bottom heater be enough? Can they sit directly on that mat and still be ok? Or do I need to top it with something?
I have a feeling Mac will give me a hard time to go in that box, he's the type of tort to go to his little corner, dig down and be happy with that. At first I would put him under the log hide every night and he would stay there sometimes but never go into the hide on his own at night time. He only uses that hide when the sun is beaming and he wants shelter. How would you shrink that box in size? Do they sell smaller mats? Smaller radiating heat things?
Do you feel Mac would benefit from this more than me just setting up an indoor temp box for him? Where's he's at, I don't have power, I would have to run an extension cord from my outlet against the house to him, that might be a problem.


Also, when hibernating, I get the feeling that it is critical to have them maintain a cold temp (I think you said 45F). The only way I see this as possible is buying a dedicated fridge for him.
Has research been done on NOT hibernating a hibernating species of tort? Will he be okay if I don't do it? Or would he benefit from me doing it? I would imagine he needs this? Honestly, hibernating scares me a little, I don't want to attempt this until I can fully grasp the entire concept and be sure that I can do this properly. Something I should have researched before I made my move.

So you aren't hibernating your Russians this year? Is there a reason for it? Their age?

 

[kallylou]

Hi! We just adopted a Russian Tortoise this summer Very first one... so we are learning as much as possible. Vet thinks she is about 8-10 yrs old and definitely ready for hibernation this year. We live in CO and have only indoor enclosure for her. Is it possible to keep her setup in the garage (not heated) during hibernation or would she require a fridge? Appreciate all input! Thanks.

 

[Tom]

Hi! We just adopted a Russian Tortoise this summer Very first one... so we are learning as much as possible. Vet thinks she is about 8-10 yrs old and definitely ready for hibernation this year. We live in CO and have only indoor enclosure for her. Is it possible to keep her setup in the garage (not heated) during hibernation or would she require a fridge? Appreciate all input! Thanks.

This depends on your temperatures. If your temps in the garage hover around 40 all winter long, then you should be fine. If they get much higher or any lower than that, you'll need to do something to keep your tortoise safe.

 

[Tom]

Very interesting, is there anything on the market that I can just buy and plug in and call it a day? Your drip loops remind me of the way my husband sets up his aquariums. ITs pretty much the same principle. What is the radiating heat pad thing on the top for? Wouldn't the bottom heater be enough? Can they sit directly on that mat and still be ok? Or do I need to top it with something?

I'll take these one paragraph at a time.

1. There is not a tortoise house and heating system that is all-in-one and ready to go for every situation. But don't be afraid. A bunch of us have done this many times and we will hand-hold you through this as much as you need or want. All of this stuff is really simple to use. There is always an element of customization with every set up.
2. The overhead radiant heat panel is a way to add more heat in a safe way. The box in that thread is made for tropical species and the Kane heat mat alone is not enough to keep them warm in my climate on our below freezing winter nights.
3. In YOUR climate, the bottom heater MIGHT be enough for YOUR species. Only your thermometer can answer this question.
4. Yes. They can sit directly on the mat. Those mats are also called "pig blankets" or "farrowing pads" because they are designed for newborn piglets to lay on in their first few hours and days of life. They are heavy duty, yet safe.
5. You cannot put ANYTHING on top of the pad. This will make potentially dangerous hot spots and possibly trip the safety mechanisms of your pad, shutting it off on a cold night.