Hibernation

[AjDaVinci]

Hi, we have been struggling with helping our tortoise gain weight for about a year now. We brought him to the vet for critical care, injections, tube feeding etc. We now inject him ourselves twice a week because we have to stop him from hibernating as he is too thin to hibernate.
Vet says his husbandry is excellent and it could be something physiologically wrong with his digestion / bad breeder / bad start in life. He is now 8.
Next year he HAS to hibernate as the vet believes it could affect his thyroid if he doesn't.
He tries to hibernate as soon as October hits, even if his tank conditions don't change with the seasons. So, we are going to bite the bullet and hibernate him next year.
So, what's the best way to make a Hermann's gain weight without too much protein in the diet. I live in Ireland and I am very into foraging or gardening so anything in my region I can forage/ grow is fair game.
He is currently 820g, very small for his age, but believe it or not he is gaining weight. Once his appetite picks up again in spring/ summer what should I feed him to bulk him up for Winter?

 

[wellington]

First, what exactly is his temps? Basking temp? All over temp? Night temps?
What type of light are you using for UVB?
What type of bulbs are you using for heat?
What do you try to feed?
Humidity?
How long do you have the lights on during the day?
Brumating tortoises do not ever have to brumate. Whatever your vet is talking about is not true unless he is referring only to your tortoise because of the weight. To brumate a tortoise that is under weight and not real healthy is a death sentence and should not be done!

 

[Tom]

Hi, we have been struggling with helping our tortoise gain weight for about a year now. We brought him to the vet for critical care, injections, tube feeding etc. We now inject him ourselves twice a week because we have to stop him from hibernating as he is too thin to hibernate.
Vet says his husbandry is excellent and it could be something physiologically wrong with his digestion / bad breeder / bad start in life. He is now 8.
Next year he HAS to hibernate as the vet believes it could affect his thyroid if he doesn't.
He tries to hibernate as soon as October hits, even if his tank conditions don't change with the seasons. So, we are going to bite the bullet and hibernate him next year.
So, what's the best way to make a Hermann's gain weight without too much protein in the diet. I live in Ireland and I am very into foraging or gardening so anything in my region I can forage/ grow is fair game.
He is currently 820g, very small for his age, but believe it or not he is gaining weight. Once his appetite picks up again in spring/ summer what should I feed him to bulk him up for Winter?

I feel awful for you. You've been getting all the wrong info and doing all the wrong things...

What are you injecting the tortoise with to keep it from brumating? I've never even heard of that one.

Where to begin...

Vets don't know about tortoise care. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. They learn tortoise care from all the same wrong sources that everyone else learns it from. Consequently, they give the same bad advice that you will find on the internet, in books, and from pet shops.

They do not ever "have to hibernate", and it does nothing to their thyroid if they don't. Many members here choose to not brumate their temperate tortoise species, sometimes for decades, and it does no harm.

In all likelihood, his behavior and lack of appetite was a normal reaction to the environment around him. All the injections and vet care have probably messed him all up and complicated things tremendously. All you needed was probably some husbandry tweaks to remedy this situation. In addition to answers for the questions Wellington asked, what substrate is the tortoise on and what is the size and type of enclosure? With answers to these questions, we can help get your tortoise back on track.

There is nothing wrong with feeding plant based higher protein foods to your tortoise like alfalfa, clover, broad or narrow leaf plantain weed, and others, as long as the tortoise is well hydrated and housed correctly. Protein is only a problem when they are housed too cold, too dry and in too small of an enclosure, which sadly, is a large percentage of the time.

We will help you as best we can, but you are going to have to realize that most of the sources for tortoise care that you have found and been listening to are following all the old wrong methods. If you want to go about this another way, read these two threads and see how your current enclosure, lighting and care differ:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions and conversation are welcome.

 

[mark1]

your tortoise does not appear at all healthy in the pic .... his body condition appears poor .... for a tortoise to become that skinny takes months and months and months of starvation and or disease ..... if what i see from this picture is accurate, and he's eating , there is a significant problem going on ....... his forearms appear to have very little fat or muscle , imo it's like seeing an alligator or monitor with thin tails , if their tails are skinny they have problems, starvation, and most likely disease ....

brumation without question affects the thyroid , it is one of the organs most affected by brumation.....anecdotally, seeing reptiles emerge from brumation and the hormonal surges that accompany that, and seeing reptiles not hibernated , the difference seems clear to me ...... you'll find very few people that have kept tortoises for even 1/2 of their life expectancies to be able to reliably have an opinion on whether or not temperate reptiles "need" to hibernate...... one aspect of hibernating temperate reptiles that is not debatable, it is natural......

if that tortoise has been eating ? i'd get the vet a stool sample........ from this one pic , the tortoise appears to me to be in the process of wasting away..... i'd assume the injections are not to "keep him from hibernating , but are antibiotics in case of , or because they suspect an infection........ b complex injections are said to improve appetite , or an anabolic steroids can be given, but those wouldn't be given twice a week .... could be fluid therapy for hydration, just because you soak them doesn't mean they're drinking , soaking can actually dehydrate them further if they don't drink............ you got the name of what your injecting on the package ???

exotic vets have more than a semester on reptiles , they have entire programs, many of them are reptile enthusiast/keepers/hobbyist ........ 99% of the studies done on turtles and tortoises are done by veterinary colleges , professors and students..... the professors at these colleges are some of the top reptile veterinarians in the world......

 

[AjDaVinci]

First, what exactly is his temps? Basking temp? All over temp? Night temps?
What type of light are you using for UVB?
What type of bulbs are you using for heat?
What do you try to feed?
Humidity?
How long do you have the lights on during the day?
Brumating tortoises do not ever have to brumate. Whatever your vet is talking about is not true unless he is referring only to your tortoise because of the weight. To brumate a tortoise that is under weight and not real healthy is a death sentence and should not be done!

The vet is only specifically talking about our tortoise. But she said to brumate him ONLY when he puts on the weight.
We've been asked to keep his lighting on for longer to try wake him up, so it's on 12 hours. He has a desert grade tube light for UV. And a 100WW heat lamp with white light. Warm end is 32°C-35°C and cool end is 20°C.
The warm end stays around 30°C at night but I'm not sure about the cool end. If I were to guess it would probably drop to around 15°C.
Humidity usually sits around 50/60%, but it dipped over the Christmas as we were only home to give baths/ injections for the couple days (my bad).
During the winter, we just feed him food he likes because he really doesn't eat anything at all. So strawberries, cabbage, wax worms, spinach. He gets calcium and electrolyte baths every day to compensate.
In summer he gets foraged weeds, dandelion, clover, parsley, wild sage, mint, strawberry/blackberry/raspberry leaves, yarrow, narrowleaf plantain etc. As well as various lettuces bought from the shops. His favourite treats are flowers such as violas, roses, dandelions and grated carrot/parsnip.

 

[AjDaVinci]

your tortoise does not appear at all healthy in the pic .... his body condition appears poor .... for a tortoise to become that skinny takes months and months and months of starvation and or disease ..... if what i see from this picture is accurate, and he's eating , there is a significant problem going on ....... his forearms appear to have very little fat or muscle , imo it's like seeing an alligator or monitor with thin tails , if their tails are skinny they have problems, starvation, and most likely disease ....

brumation without question affects the thyroid , it is one of the organs most affected by brumation.....anecdotally, seeing reptiles emerge from brumation and the hormonal surges that accompany that, and seeing reptiles not hibernated , the difference seems clear to me ...... you'll find very few people that have kept tortoises for even 1/2 of their life expectancies to be able to reliably have an opinion on whether or not temperate reptiles "need" to hibernate...... one aspect of hibernating temperate reptiles that is not debatable, it is natural......

if that tortoise has been eating ? i'd get the vet a stool sample........ from this one pic , the tortoise appears to me to be in the process of wasting away..... i'd assume the injections are not to "keep him from hibernating , but are antibiotics in case of , or because they suspect an infection........ b complex injections are said to improve appetite , or an anabolic steroids can be given, but those wouldn't be given twice a week .... could be fluid therapy for hydration, just because you soak them doesn't mean they're drinking , soaking can actually dehydrate them further if they don't drink............ you got the name of what your injecting on the package ???

exotic vets have more than a semester on reptiles , they have entire programs, many of them are reptile enthusiast/keepers/hobbyist ........ 99% of the studies done on turtles and tortoises are done by veterinary colleges , professors and students..... the professors at these colleges are some of the top reptile veterinarians in the world......

Yeah it's been almost a year long battle, we've tried multiple vets. He's gotten blood tests, steroid injections, antibiotics etc. He had an x-ray and everything. It's just a winter issue. He is very lively in Summer, but he's such a fussy eater that he just about puts on the weight that he's lost over winter, then stops eating again. Everyone is stumped. He's been checked for parasites and all. We definitely want to hibernate him as clearly he WANTS to. We just want to provide him with all the prep he needs for winter as he is very very sick at the moment and it's heartbreaking.

 

[wellington]

Stop feeding fruit, that only messes up their gut flora and fauna.
Please follow Toms advice and make changes needed ASAP.
They don't need to brumate! Should never brumate if sick or not doing well!
Vets do not learn about tortoises in their education but learn what they do know from the same wrong sources that you have found.
Make changes now and give us all the answers to any questions asked
Soaking does hydrate them and will not dehydrate them!!! Keep up daily warm soaks and try adding piedialyte to the soak water daily.
A better diet without all the fruit causing gut problems and a tweak of the enclosure, temps and lighting may be all that's needed.

 

[AjDaVinci]

Stop feeding fruit, that only messes up their gut flora and fauna.
Please follow Toms advice and make changes needed ASAP.
They don't need to brumate! Should never brumate if sick or not doing well!
Vets do not learn about tortoises in their education but learn what they do know from the same wrong sources that you have found.
Make changes now and give us all the answers to any questions asked
Soaking does hydrate them and will not dehydrate them!!! Keep up daily warm soaks and try adding piedialyte to the soak water daily.
A better diet without all the fruit causing gut problems and a tweak of the enclosure, temps and lighting may be all that's needed.

I was giving him fruit just to get him to eat anything at all. Is it better for him to eat nothing over a small bit of fruit? Genuinely curious. And have you guys got any really really tasty veggies we could try?

 

[wellington]

If the fruit screws up the gut, and he's not putting on weight, then yes, it's bad to feed fruit!
Try squash, red, yellow, orange or green peppers. If you can get some mazuri tortoise pellets try those, they are good for putting weight on. You can also squeeze some of the juice from the fruit onto the good food. Once she gets used to the better diet, stop with the fruit juice. But try without the juice first.

 

[AjDaVinci]

If the fruit screws up the gut, and he's not putting on weight, then yes, it's bad to feed fruit!
Try squash, red, yellow, orange or green peppers. If you can get some mazuri tortoise pellets try those, they are good for putting weight on. You can also squeeze some of the juice from the fruit onto the good food. Once she gets used to the better diet, stop with the fruit juice. But try without the juice first.

Thank you so much. He REALLY hates pellets too, because of course he does 🙄. I'll try that little hack!!

 

[mark1]

your tortoise enclosure looks pretty dry, that tortoise could stand some moisture , and at least a partially covered top for better control of humidity and temperature........

as far as winter problems ,i read about these all the time on here .... i keep hibernating species and i've never experienced what folks on here say is normal "wanting to hibernate" behavior.... my question to me was/is why?? the answer i believe is because i always let them get cold before i bring them in........ i've allowed turtles i suspected of not being 100% to hibernate(get cold) for a short period of time before i brought them in....i've never brought one in for any reason tat didn't get cold........ they've never acted anything short of normal after that........

many folks do not realize how little energy(food) ectotherms require at optimum body temperature ,let alone 35-50f degrees..... wild turtles weigh considerably less than captive turtles of identical size,i've never seen a wild turtle that couldn't pull completely and deeply into their shell , excluding snapping turtles and like species...... weight is not as much of a concern when hibernating as is health..... it would take a seriously emaciated healthy turtle/tortoise to have a problem with energy over a 3-4 month hibernation in nature, let alone a 40F fridge........

my thoughts for your problem, if you get him through to the spring/summer , keep him outside 24/7 and do not bring him in until after he has been dug in for the winter for a month, i usually get them right before there is a chance they will be buried with snow and i won't be able to get them .... bring him in put him in an enclosure under optimal summer conditions , i'm guessing you'll not experience the winter problems you describe ......

here's a baby box turtle i dug up beginning of december , right before we got a significant snowfall...he was really tiny like 4 weeks , over the 3 weeks he has almost doubled in size...... it appears to me he has not a clue it's not summer ...... his enclosure is just temporary until late may when i'll put him back out ... i use tin foil on the top to regulate heat and humidity , too hot, i open it up more , too cold, i close it up better........

 

[wellington]

your tortoise enclosure looks pretty dry, that tortoise could stand some moisture , and at least a partially covered top for better control of humidity and temperature........

as far as winter problems ,i read about these all the time on here .... i keep hibernating species and i've never experienced what folks on here say is normal "wanting to hibernate" behavior.... my question to me was/is why?? the answer i believe is because i always let them get cold before i bring them in........ i've allowed turtles i suspected of not being 100% to hibernate(get cold) for a short period of time before i brought them in....i've never brought one in for any reason tat didn't get cold........ they've never acted anything short of normal after that........

many folks do not realize how little energy(food) ectotherms require at optimum body temperature ,let alone 35-50f degrees..... wild turtles weigh considerably less than captive turtles of identical size,i've never seen a wild turtle that couldn't pull completely and deeply into their shell , excluding snapping turtles and like species...... weight is not as much of a concern when hibernating as is health..... it would take a seriously emaciated healthy turtle/tortoise to have a problem with energy over a 3-4 month hibernation in nature, let alone a 40F fridge........

my thoughts for your problem, if you get him through to the spring/summer , keep him outside 24/7 and do not bring him in until after he has been dug in for the winter for a month, i usually get them right before there is a chance they will be buried with snow and i won't be able to get them .... bring him in put him in an enclosure under optimal summer conditions , i'm guessing you'll not experience the winter problems you describe ......

here's a baby box turtle i dug up beginning of december , right before we got a significant snowfall...he was really tiny like 4 weeks , over the 3 weeks he has almost doubled in size...... it appears to me he has not a clue it's not summer ...... his enclosure is just temporary until late may when i'll put him back out ... i use tin foil on the top to regulate heat and humidity , too hot, i open it up more , too cold, i close it up better........

I have one Russian. The only time he has ever acted like he wanted to brumate is when I housed him in the basement on the floor. Although he was in a greenhouse type enclosure, it wasn't as bright as where he is now and not as warm. I did the 60's at night and regular temps during the day. This winter he is in the tortoise shed that is always 80 or above and brightly lit during the day. He hasn't once not ate or wanted to dig in. I don't wait until it's cold to bring him in.
My guess with the other members having trouble keeping them up is too cold day and night and not bright enough throughout the whole enclosure.
Likely a lot different with with turtles than tortoises, specially if native ones. Guessing.

 

[mark1]

exotic veterinarians not getting an education in reptiles is ludicrous...... who would you imagine has done 100% of the research that's been done on reptiles??????? who do you think cares for the reptile collections around the world ??????

hydration and soaking ....... it's been done , happens to have been done by either uc davis or university of florida vet students, can't remember which?????? imagine , something this obscure has been studied by a veterinary school, and they used tortoises???? first we'll go the common sense route , a sick tortoise will often not drink, when you soak them they often urinate and defecate, from there no telling where logic will take you ?????? now the science..... some vet students took tortoises and weighed them , and did bloodwork on them ...... simplification, you can tell how hydrated they are by the solid to liquid content/ density of their blood ....... they soaked these tortoises , they then weighed them , they all weighed less....... they then did bloodwork , none of them had become more hydrated.....

 

[mark1]

having kept turtles and tortoises i don't see anything more different than the difference between different turtle species ...... having watched turtle hibernate on their own for last 24 years , i got a pretty good idea on how it works ......

 

[Tom]

who would you imagine has done 100% of the research that's been done on reptiles??????? who do you think cares for the reptile collections around the world ??????

People like you and me.

How many vets do you call friends? How many vets do you share your table with on holidays and special occasions? How many vets do you travel to foreign countries with to see reptile shows or wild animals? I have several that are this close and many more that are friends, but not as close as Christmas dinner friends. I've conversed about this subject with them many times over many years.

Who is the vet that said pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry? All their supposed experimentation over all these decades, yet not one of them figured this out? And most of them will still ignorantly argue against the concept despite mountains of evidence right in front of them.

Why do you think so many "exotic" vets want to inject vitamin A shots into tortoises? Is it because they are so well educated on tortoise care in vet school?

 

[AjDaVinci]

your tortoise enclosure looks pretty dry, that tortoise could stand some moisture , and at least a partially covered top for better control of humidity and temperature........

as far as winter problems ,i read about these all the time on here .... i keep hibernating species and i've never experienced what folks on here say is normal "wanting to hibernate" behavior.... my question to me was/is why?? the answer i believe is because i always let them get cold before i bring them in........ i've allowed turtles i suspected of not being 100% to hibernate(get cold) for a short period of time before i brought them in....i've never brought one in for any reason tat didn't get cold........ they've never acted anything short of normal after that........

many folks do not realize how little energy(food) ectotherms require at optimum body temperature ,let alone 35-50f degrees..... wild turtles weigh considerably less than captive turtles of identical size,i've never seen a wild turtle that couldn't pull completely and deeply into their shell , excluding snapping turtles and like species...... weight is not as much of a concern when hibernating as is health..... it would take a seriously emaciated healthy turtle/tortoise to have a problem with energy over a 3-4 month hibernation in nature, let alone a 40F fridge........

my thoughts for your problem, if you get him through to the spring/summer , keep him outside 24/7 and do not bring him in until after he has been dug in for the winter for a month, i usually get them right before there is a chance they will be buried with snow and i won't be able to get them .... bring him in put him in an enclosure under optimal summer conditions , i'm guessing you'll not experience the winter problems you describe ......

here's a baby box turtle i dug up beginning of december , right before we got a significant snowfall...he was really tiny like 4 weeks , over the 3 weeks he has almost doubled in size...... it appears to me he has not a clue it's not summer ...... his enclosure is just temporary until late may when i'll put him back out ... i use tin foil on the top to regulate heat and humidity , too hot, i open it up more , too cold, i close it up better........

I live in Ireland, our Springs and Summers are still quite cold. We bring him outside to a pen only on the hot days, and a hot day over here is 20°C at peak. We'd never leave him out overnight as it is very cold here. He is indoors all year round other than the couple weeks he can stay outside

 

[mark1]

Tom , how many research papers have you or the vets you call friends published ????? where can i access them???? i've read a ton of research on turtles and tortoises , they have all been done by university professors/veterinarians and students ........ who do think has identified all these diseases ????? who think does all these necropsies, x-rays, pcr's , blood work , experimental treatments, figures out dosages, and on and on and on and on , the thought is ridiculous ....... vets i'd call friends , at the moment 5-6, over my lifetime dozens........... your vet friends are stupid people?????? or are they exceptions ?????

 

[Tom]

I live in Ireland, our Springs and Summers are still quite cold. We bring him outside to a pen only on the hot days, and a hot day over here is 20°C at peak. We'd never leave him out overnight as it is very cold here. He is indoors all year round other than the couple weeks he can stay outside

With the exception of the fruit, the diet you are offering sounds pretty good. I agree that it is best to skip the fruit even if he's not eating at all, because the fruit can wreak havoc on their intestinal flora and fauna, and make them not want to eat, and not able to process food.

When they don't eat, there is a reason. Discover the reason and correct the problem, and the appetite should come back.

I'm guessing that you are having this issue in winter precisely because you are not brumating the tortoise. If he is being kept up and warm, but not eating at all or enough, that would explain why he is wasting away. Some people don't want to brumate their tortoises, but sometimes the tortoises don't care what the people want. Brumation is normal and natural. Though there are many examples of tortoises that have not been brumated for many years, and they are apparently fine, it is my opinion that species that brumate in the wild would be brumated in captivity. If your animal is unhealthy or unfit for brumation, then you can't brumate them, but I'm wondering if YOUR tortoise is unhealthy because you haven't brumated him?

Assuming he resumes eating well all summer long and you are able to feed all those good weeds to him, I'd brumate him next winter.

Review these threads to make sure all your husbandry is good, and check out the brumation thread for next year. A detail like the wrong substrate that could be causing impaction, or the wrong type of light bulb, or the wrong temperatures, could be a significant contributor to this problem.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[mark1]

I live in Ireland, our Springs and Summers are still quite cold. We bring him outside to a pen only on the hot days, and a hot day over here is 20°C at peak. We'd never leave him out overnight as it is very cold here. He is indoors all year round other than the couple weeks he can stay outside

yeah, you got a pretty nasty climate for reptiles.... i got a friend lived in scotland , he told me he never turned his heat off the entire time lived there .........

 

[AjDaVinci]

With the exception of the fruit, the diet you are offering sounds pretty good. I agree that it is best to skip the fruit even if he's not eating at all, because the fruit can wreak havoc on their intestinal flora and fauna, and make them not want to eat, and not able to process food.

When they don't eat, there is a reason. Discover the reason and correct the problem, and the appetite should come back.

I'm guessing that you are having this issue in winter precisely because you are not brumating the tortoise. If he is being kept up and warm, but not eating at all or enough, that would explain why he is wasting away. Some people don't want to brumate their tortoises, but sometimes the tortoises don't care what the people want. Brumation is normal and natural. Though there are many examples of tortoises that have not been brumated for many years, and they are apparently fine, it is my opinion that species that brumate in the wild would be brumated in captivity. If your animal is unhealthy or unfit for brumation, then you can't brumate them, but I'm wondering if YOUR tortoise is unhealthy because you haven't brumated him?

Assuming he resumes eating well all summer long and you are able to feed all those good weeds to him, I'd brumate him next winter.

Review these threads to make sure all your husbandry is good, and check out the brumation thread for next year. A detail like the wrong substrate that could be causing impaction, or the wrong type of light bulb, or the wrong temperatures, could be a significant contributor to this problem.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you. I'll make any changes I'll need to make and update you as his condition changes. This is very helpful. If we can get his weight up by next year, we will put him in brumation. It's what HE wants after all.