How much room does a hermann need?

[NickPoole]

Hi all,

Just a quick bit of background: I'm looking to buy a couple of young (<1 year old) hermann tortoises this summer. I'm currently trying to gather as much information as I can, so that I'm able to care for them properly.

One thing that I've not been able to find out so far is how fast do hermann's grow? I understand that they grow to around 20cm, but I have no idea of how long that takes, and as such I've got no idea how big a habitat I need to make for them. I've been asking in the enclosures thread so far, here: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5904.html

Ideally I was wondering if anyone has a growth chart that I can get an idea from. Also if anyone can recommend how big a habitat for two tortoises should be, I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Yvonne G]

Because it is winter time, our trend here on the forum has been towards telling people how to set up their indoor habitats. I think we all need to remember that tortoises need to be outside.

If you are buying a couple of babies, then you will need to prepare your indoor habitat for babies, but in my opinion, you need to think about putting them outside before they get to be adults, and I wouldn't worry about building the habitat for your babies, big enough for when they get to be adults.

Just my opinion!

Yvonne

 

[NickPoole]

I fully intend to keep them outside in the summer (although the summer here in the UK is quite short and barely warm enough). During the night's the temperature is rarely over 15C, so bringing them back inside to sleep seems like a good idea.

My biggest problem with the inside habitat is that I have a relatively old house, and the temperature is next to impossible to regulate, hence keeping the tortoises at a constant temperature is not going to be easy.

As I don't intend to move for the next 5 years, I need to design the indoors habitat to keep the heat in whilst keeping it well ventilated and with low humidity. I.e. as near to perfect conditions as can be achieved with an indoor habitat. This is not going to be easy to pull off, so I'd like to have it last; hence the questions about the growth of hermann and my future planning.

 

[Millerlite]

make the indoor enclosure as big as you can, I know a few people in the UK that keep there tortoises indoors for a long amount of time because of the weather. Have you ever been to shelled warrior forum?

http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/index.php

There are a lot of people from the UK, and they have a lot of pictures of there indoor enclosures, also most people have Hermanns and greeks which is right in your boat.

 

[NickPoole]

Thanks Millerlite, I've started a thread there too now. It looks like tortoise tables are generally considered the way to go, but noone seems to have my heating issue.

I'm probably going to buy the required lighting and heating equipment and set up a cheap table to test whether I can maintain suitable temperatures for a small environment. Could someone please recommend what sort of size storage container I should use (I'm thinking 60cm x 60cm, to be upgraded when the tortoises outgrow it).

 

[tortoisenerd]

2ftx2ft approx would be a start for very small hatchlings. More room the better though. I have twice that area for my one hatchling tort but I overdid it a bit. By covering parts of the table but leaving others open (where the light goes through) you can do a combo vivarium and tort table...I'd also recommend getting a temperature gun (uses a laser) to instantly and accurately take the temps at substrate level around the enclosure. I have a model called the PE1 that I got for $25 USD (20 euros?) and have been really happy with. For a really accurate test, I'd set up the substrate as well. You probably want 6 inches (about 15 cm) deep, ideally.

 

[Millerlite]

just go as big as you can go, i always recomend that, 2x2 would be good for a hatching, but if you could go bigger, mine as well, save money too, and you dont have to build new ones as they grow.


Temp. guns are amazing.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I personally ended up building my tort table the biggest size for the space I had, and it sits on top of a dining room buffet cabinet, so looks pretty nice in the room too.

 

[dmmj]

regarding size space I was once told a square foot for every square inch of turtle/tortoise. Since mine are outside they have big enclosures so I can not say whether those specific requirements work. ALso as most tortoises they prob like to hide so make sure they all have hide spots. not just one turtles like to be alone sometimes, when I keep more than one (same species) in a pen I always make sure that they all have multiple hides so they can choose. There are also quite a few yahoo groups of UK turtle keepers that you may find useful.

 

[NickPoole]

I need to remeasure the space I have, but I think I have about 1m x 2m to play with; however, all of it may be overkill for two young tortoises. I'll pick up an inferred thermometer tomorrow and see if my local pet shop has the right lighting in stock. I'll start off by testing a relatively big storage box, but to do it properly I'll need to get my hands on a data-logger.

I intend to put in at least two hides and grass like decorations (partially to make it look nice and partially for the tortoises to hid from each other if they want).

I'd still like to clarify how quickly hermann tortoises grow.

 

[tortoisenerd]

If they are anything like a Russian tortoise, they could take 5-10 years to reach full size. I looked up Hermann's, and this site says 10 years for most of the growth, and then slower up to 20-25 years.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080801053941AAroCvI

 

[NickPoole]

Thanks for the link Kate; I hadn't seen that one. So it sounds like I won't need the full size enclosure for at least 2 or 3 years.

I got hold of an inferred thermometer and had a look at the room's normal temperature (between 10C and 12C). Actually warmer than I had expected. I'd like to see the change in temperature over the day though, so I'm building a temperature/humidity data-logger.

I think I could find a reasonable sized storage container to use as a tortoise table initially (as it shouldn't be too hard to keep warm) and then reassess the requirements when the tortoises are starting to out-grow the space.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

 

[tortoisenerd]

50-54 F is cold...brrr. You are going to have some issues with that. With some typical tables I've seen set-up, you generally need the room temperatures at least in the 60s before you need to work things pretty special (enclosing it, etc). Sounds like a good starting idea--sometimes it is better to get a feel for the situation first before jumping in too much. I've only had my tort a couple months (built the table the week before I got him), and I'd definitely change a few things in the table. I can't now as I don't have the tools or another place for him to live, but thankfully nothing too big. I'll just build a new one later on when he needs something bigger (spent about $100 on the table alone and some of the stuff would be reusable).

The storage container should be good due to the high sides, and using the lid as a partial cover. I recommend a dark-sided one to try and avoid the stress of seeing out. Some ideas: holiday storage containers (for trees, decorations, etc, if still available), or else there are big options such as a black plastic storage trunk with a removable lid, or the under the bed ones if the sides are high enough for substrate. Not sure what you have available across the pond. A more long-term tort table that is ready to go is a galvanized steel trough (like for water; available at feed stores here). They are more pricey though.

 

[NickPoole]

I suspect that storage containers over here are not too much different, although they're normally clear or frosted. The one I had in mind is this: http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/n...efview=lister&ts=1234259955444&isSearch=false

Since it's not too big, it might be possible to put it somewhere warmer in the house during the coldest months.

Troughs aren't as common over here (or at least in the south of England), and I'm sure that they'd be even harder to heat up. I still believe that I could build a large climate controlled table, but there is a good chance that I'll be moving house before I need an enclosure that size.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Link is broken right now but I'll check back later. Sounds like you'll have some lucky torts!

 

[Ozric]

{It looks like tortoise tables are generally considered the way to go, but noone seems to have my heating issue.}

Hi Nick. I am in the uk (Scotland). You will really need to think about maintaining one room to a temperature of roughly 18C or more during the day. Then your habitat would have a cool daytime temperature in that region and your temp under the lamp can be obtained by adjusting lamp height. Cold draughts are a problem especially with little ones and its almost certainly best in your case not to have the tortoises at ground level, but table height.

I am keeping some of mine up all winter indoors and I've just had to maintain one room at a nice temperature even when I'm out all day at work. If the background temp is too low then you get just a very small area under the lamp that is warm enough, and this is not what you want.

If it is 10 to 12 C in your house during the day then you must be a lot tougher than me! You might need to get the smallest room you have and insulate and draught proof that for the tortoises.

Hermanns grow quite slowly so you do get time to plan. But, the more space the better both indoors and out.

I'm not sure if an enclosed container is a good idea, you could have problems with heat build-up and a free flow of air is important to good health in this species.

 

[NickPoole]

Hi Ozeric. Thanks for the advice. The room in question (kitchen, dining room and utility room combined) doesn't tend to get drafts, but it is big and has a number of windows making it very hard to keep warm in the winter.

Now just to slightly complicate things, I should say that this house is my girlfriend's mother's (saving up for our own place at the moment). My house doesn't have the heating problem, mainly because it was renovated a while back; however, the garden is in now way suitable, as there is a shared drive running along one side which is publicly accessible and I don't want the tortoises to be stolen. If I only require a small habitat whilst the tortoises are young, then it might be easiest to move them to mine for the winter, keeping them warm enough, and then back to my girlfriend's when it is warm enough to use the garden again.

Don't worry about the enclosed container, it may have a lid, but I have no intention of using it; it was just of a suitable size and colour. If I do find that there are build-ups of stale/hot air, I have enough spare computer fans to fix the problem.