How warm does it need to be at night.

[Jmeyer]

Hi. So I have a 3 year old sulcata named Pat. He is currently about 35lbs. I live in Louisiana and during the winter temperatures can drop to low 40s or high 30s. (They can go lower but if they did I would bring him inside). This is his first year being a full time outdoor tortoise. He has the entire backyard available to roam and I modified a doghouse for him to sleep in and be warm. The doghouse has a a powered doghouse heater, a basking halogen bulb, a CHE, and a uvb light for kicks. Everything is time or temp controlled. I also made a double wall with insulation. My question…
Last night outside temp dropped to 45 degrees. Inside his house stayed above 60 most of the night but did drop to 55 for an hour or so. Not bad but I did have an extra flap down in front of the door which I would rather leave up to make it easier for him to come and go. I am about to leave for over a week and the temperatures are expected to get even colder. And even be cold and rainy during the day. What nighttime temps can a tortoise of his size be expected to tolerate and for how long? Should I have any concerns? And any suggestions on ways to increase warmth in the house?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

He needs to be at 80F or 86F on especially cold weather. Heating should be available 24/7.

Using CHE or halogen bulbs might result in shell burns if they hang too low. Some owners use oil-filled radiators (with a sidewall section so tortoise can't reach it), Kane mats or pig blankets and radiant heat panels (to make gentle warmth from above and from below).

To help maintain temperatures at night you can add insulated door to your doghouse (which makes a ramp when open).

Take a look at this thread for ideas of a night box design: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/single-tortoise-night-box.181515/

 

[dd33]

I agree with Alex’s points. Remove all the lights and heat it with an oil filled radiator and or radiant heat panels.
It looks like your only insulation is the bubble foil type. I’d start over and go with as many layers of polyiso insulation as you can. I typically use two layers of 3/4”. Make sure you insulate the floor and the lid too.
Lastly it needs a door to close him in on really cold nights to reduce heat loss and the danger for him if he decides to leave the box at night.

 

[Tom]

Hi. So I have a 3 year old sulcata named Pat. He is currently about 35lbs. I live in Louisiana and during the winter temperatures can drop to low 40s or high 30s. (They can go lower but if they did I would bring him inside). This is his first year being a full time outdoor tortoise. He has the entire backyard available to roam and I modified a doghouse for him to sleep in and be warm. The doghouse has a a powered doghouse heater, a basking halogen bulb, a CHE, and a uvb light for kicks. Everything is time or temp controlled. I also made a double wall with insulation. My question…
Last night outside temp dropped to 45 degrees. Inside his house stayed above 60 most of the night but did drop to 55 for an hour or so. Not bad but I did have an extra flap down in front of the door which I would rather leave up to make it easier for him to come and go. I am about to leave for over a week and the temperatures are expected to get even colder. And even be cold and rainy during the day. What nighttime temps can a tortoise of his size be expected to tolerate and for how long? Should I have any concerns? And any suggestions on ways to increase warmth in the house?

Dog houses don't work and you have now seen it first hand. Your tortoise is going to quickly get sick at those low temps.

Your tortoise should never drop below 80 degrees, and when days are cold and it can't warm up in the sunshine, I up the box temps to 86.

Heat lamps and CHEs are going to burn your tortoises carapace. Those are not safe or effective for larger tortoises, but they are great for babies.

You need a suitable heated and insulated box for your tortoise with safe and effective heating inside. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

After spending a night in the 50s and 60s, your tortoise is likely on the verge of sickness right now. Get this tortoise warmed up to 95-100 all day today, and make sure the night temps are staying in the 80s tonight.

These tortoises come from a part of Africa that is near 100 degrees every day. They live in burrows where the ground temps are 80-85 all year, and they warm up in the sun at the mouth of their burrow to get above ambient daily. You need to find a way to simulate this warmth.

 

[Jmeyer]

Dog houses don't work and you have now seen it first hand. Your tortoise is going to quickly get sick at those low temps.

Your tortoise should never drop below 80 degrees, and when days are cold and it can't warm up in the sunshine, I up the box temps to 86.

Heat lamps and CHEs are going to burn your tortoises carapace. Those are not safe or effective for larger tortoises, but they are great for babies.

You need a suitable heated and insulated box for your tortoise with safe and effective heating inside. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

After spending a night in the 50s and 60s, your tortoise is likely on the verge of sickness right now. Get this tortoise warmed up to 95-100 all day today, and make sure the night temps are staying in the 80s tonight.

These tortoises come from a part of Africa that is near 100 degrees every day. They live in burrows where the ground temps are 80-85 all year, and they warm up in the sun at the mouth of their burrow to get above ambient daily. You need to find a way to simulate this warmth.

So during the day outside temps still get in the high 70s and he has a basking light and rocks. He doesn’t seem to have trouble warming up during the day as he frequently roams and eats for several hours, gets excited when I show up with a flower or piece of melon etc.
But I have read, from several sources including some on here that they can actually tolerate pretty low temperatures at night as long they can get warm during the day. In my mind I’ve had the goal to be no lower than 60 at night and then somewhere between 80-100 during the day.

 

[Jmeyer]

So during the day outside temps still get in the high 70s and he has a basking light and rocks. He doesn’t seem to have trouble warming up during the day as he frequently roams and eats for several hours, gets excited when I show up with a flower or piece of melon etc.
But I have read, from several sources including some on here that they can actually tolerate pretty low temperatures at night as long they can get warm during the day. In my mind I’ve had the goal to be no lower than 60 at night and then somewhere between 80-100 during the day.

I do like the idea of the radiant heat panel. That’s something I did not know existed and I was concerned about shell burn as well. Any suggestions on brand and wattage?

Regarding dog house vs building my own. I do not have time to build my own at this point not for this winter. So the goal would be to modify the dog house at least for this winter. Also. The idea is to have something that he can come and go from when I’m not home so a closing ramp isn’t really ideal. I do have a double flap for insulation.

 

[wellington]

So during the day outside temps still get in the high 70s and he has a basking light and rocks. He doesn’t seem to have trouble warming up during the day as he frequently roams and eats for several hours, gets excited when I show up with a flower or piece of melon etc.
But I have read, from several sources including some on here that they can actually tolerate pretty low temperatures at night as long they can get warm during the day. In my mind I’ve had the goal to be no lower than 60 at night and then somewhere between 80-100 during the day.

As Tom already said, not below 80! at night. As for low temps, adults living in the colder north do get let outside during cold temps. However, they have to have a warm place, 80 and above to go into so they can warm back up. That place is an insulated shed or night box that does not go below 80. If you want your tortoise to stay alive, do not let night temps drop below 80!
Be sure when you read info, it's pertaining to your species.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

For RHP - check here: https://www.reptilebasics.com/rbi-radiant-heat-panels
I think you need to go with highest wattage you can fit in the doghouse. Maybe two. They aren't magical things and don't make warmth out of nowhere. Also, they don't work very well with high ceilings (e.g. more than 1-2 feet to tortoise shell).

Ramp-door is intended to be open at day. You close it at night to keep tortoise in and wild life out.

Please, trust Tom on requirements how to house them outside.

 

[Tom]

So during the day outside temps still get in the high 70s and he has a basking light and rocks. He doesn’t seem to have trouble warming up during the day as he frequently roams and eats for several hours, gets excited when I show up with a flower or piece of melon etc.

Warm temps and sunshine during the day are great. What about when temps are in the 50s and its overcast all day? Basking lamps are not effective for larger tortoises. They can't warm their core with that small amount of heat on the surface, and they typical slow-burn the carapace while trying.

But I have read, from several sources including some on here that they can actually tolerate pretty low temperatures at night as long they can get warm during the day.

I have no doubt you have read that in several places. You did not read that here in regards to sulcatas. That is true of temperate species like greeks and Russians. If someone were to make that assertion about sulcatas, it would quickly be refuted.

Some of them do somehow manage to survive with low night temps, but it is not good for them. What you don't here about is all the ones that get sick and die from low night temps. Those people, not surprisingly, don't get on the internet and tell people how they killed their tortoise.

I'm trying to help you to not have to learn these things the hard way. What you have there isn't suitable, and it is likely going to make your tortoise sick. Respiratory infections are difficult, time consuming and expensive to treat. Once they get a RI, they are much more prone to getting them again. You need to make changes before it is too late.

 

[Jmeyer]

Warm temps and sunshine during the day are great. What about when temps are in the 50s and its overcast all day? Basking lamps are not effective for larger tortoises. They can't warm their core with that small amount of heat on the surface, and they typical slow-burn the carapace while trying.


I have no doubt you have read that in several places. You did not read that here in regards to sulcatas. That is true of temperate species like greeks and Russians. If someone were to make that assertion about sulcatas, it would quickly be refuted.

Some of them do somehow manage to survive with low night temps, but it is not good for them. What you don't here about is all the ones that get sick and die from low night temps. Those people, not surprisingly, don't get on the internet and tell people how they killed their tortoise.

I'm trying to help you to not have to learn these things the hard way. What you have there isn't suitable, and it is likely going to make your tortoise sick. Respiratory infections are difficult, time consuming and expensive to treat. Once they get a RI, they are much more prone to getting them again. You need to make changes before it is too late.

Please don’t mistake me. I am appreciative of the experience and advice. And I also appreciate the passion and concern. I suppose the level of concern aka… imminent illness in bound, tortoise gonna die etc. did catch me a bit off guard especially since I do monitor him generally daily. A bit jarring to sit here reading that last night was awful for him while I’m watching him stroll around eating grass and nipping at my toes to try to make me give him something sweet. lol. Had he ever acted lethargic or sickly I would have thought to make changes sooner. I don’t doubt that 80 degree minimum would be best but I also can’t just up and build a brand new house by tonight lol. Mr. Pat is already a rescue, a beloved rescue to be sure, but he wasn’t originally planned for.

 

[Jmeyer]

A few things to clarify.
One, so I actually do have a radiant heater. I called it a powered heater in my original post. It’s a radiant heater designed for a doghouse. My original idea was to modify a doghouse and use the heater. However. The heat output was less than expected which is why I added the ceramic heaters. I agree they are not ideal. I suppose either the doghouse isn’t insulated enough or the radiant heater just too small. But my original idea is close to what y’all have suggested. Just haven’t executed it well enough.
Two, Louisiana is pretty warm. The current setup has not seemed to have any issue getting temps to over 80 degrees during the day even when cold and rainy. It is quite rare for temps to be below 50 during the day here. And for those times I would probably just bring him inside. The issue so far has been the still unusual but not as rare times that the night temps drop below 50.

I agree that ideally I would have a tortoise house that was constructed well enough that I could have it at the desired temp no matter the circumstances. I’ll get there. But for the moment. I need a quick stop gap for the doghouse lol. Which sounds like the answer is a combo of more insulation and a bigger radiant heater.

 

[wellington]

Its understandable that he was unexpected and a rescue but that doesn't mean he doesn't need the proper care. If you can't do it, find someone that can. The night boxes Tom builds for his and many have followed, would take a day to build, two days tops.
Being a rescue, means he didn't get proper care to begin with likely or at least the original owner didn't do their home work and gave him up once he started to get big. So many newbies on here have done the same.

 

[wellington]

Thread 'Single Tortoise Night Box' https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/single-tortoise-night-box.181515/

 

[wellington]

Thread 'My Best Night Box Design Yet' https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/

 

[Tom]

Please don’t mistake me. I am appreciative of the experience and advice. And I also appreciate the passion and concern. I suppose the level of concern aka… imminent illness in bound, tortoise gonna die etc. did catch me a bit off guard especially since I do monitor him generally daily. A bit jarring to sit here reading that last night was awful for him while I’m watching him stroll around eating grass and nipping at my toes to try to make me give him something sweet. lol. Had he ever acted lethargic or sickly I would have thought to make changes sooner. I don’t doubt that 80 degree minimum would be best but I also can’t just up and build a brand new house by tonight lol. Mr. Pat is already a rescue, a beloved rescue to be sure, but he wasn’t originally planned for.

The level of concern corresponds to the level of seriousness on this issue. I hope you are jarred into action. This tortoise needs a warmer environment, however you can accomplish that, tonight.

If you wait until after you see symptoms, it is too late. The damage is done. One cold night can do it. The dampness and humidity of your climate makes this even more likely. Repeated nights of cold temps increase the likelihood of a problem. The whole goal of this forum, and the whole reason for me taking the time to answer your question is to prevent you from having to learn this the hard way. I've been keeping sulcatas for more than 30 years. I travel the country for work and see how other people house them, and what results they get as well. I've seen this over and over again for decades. You don't have to learn the hard way through trial and error. Many have gone down this road before you. It is MUCH easier to prevent sickness than to try to cure it after you've caused it.

 

[wellington]

If you can't make one of the boxes I listed above and are going to try using the dog house, maybe this idea would work for now. Put the stiff foam boards around the outside of the house, including the roof and wrap the whole thing with tyvek like they wrap houses with.
Also get an oil filled radiator space heater and put it on a thermostat. Block the heater from the tort being able to touch it or lay against it.

 

[Tom]

A few things to clarify.
One, so I actually do have a radiant heater. I called it a powered heater in my original post. It’s a radiant heater designed for a doghouse. My original idea was to modify a doghouse and use the heater. However. The heat output was less than expected which is why I added the ceramic heaters. I agree they are not ideal. I suppose either the doghouse isn’t insulated enough or the radiant heater just too small. But my original idea is close to what y’all have suggested. Just haven’t executed it well enough.
Two, Louisiana is pretty warm. The current setup has not seemed to have any issue getting temps to over 80 degrees during the day even when cold and rainy. It is quite rare for temps to be below 50 during the day here. And for those times I would probably just bring him inside. The issue so far has been the still unusual but not as rare times that the night temps drop below 50.

I agree that ideally I would have a tortoise house that was constructed well enough that I could have it at the desired temp no matter the circumstances. I’ll get there. But for the moment. I need a quick stop gap for the doghouse lol. Which sounds like the answer is a combo of more insulation and a bigger radiant heater.

I was typing while you were typing this...

Is it an oil filled mini radiant heater? The dog house heaters I have seen were either CHEs in a plastic housing with a fan, or small radiant heat panels.

I spent many months over many years working all over Louisiana. I have family in Minden, and have favorite restaurants all over New Orleans. "Z" and their Thai rib stacks are my favorite. I've eaten at "Raising Canes" #1 in Baton Rouge, and the Canes employees out here hold that in high esteem.

I know the LA climate well. It snowed on me once on a night shoot in February one time near the French Quarter. I have had some of my coldest work days ever there and also some of the hottest in summer. The boxes I showed will work fine for your climate and keep the tortoise healthy and comfortable during those cold spells.

We will help you get there. Hopefully on the quickest, easiest path with the fewest bumps along the way.

 

[Jmeyer]

I was typing while you were typing this...

Is it an oil filled mini radiant heater? The dog house heaters I have seen were either CHEs in a plastic housing with a fan, or small radiant heat panels.

I spent many months over many years working all over Louisiana. I have family in Minden, and have favorite restaurants all over New Orleans. "Z" and their Thai rib stacks are my favorite. I've eaten at "Raising Canes" #1 in Baton Rouge, and the Canes employees out here hold that in high esteem.

I know the LA climate well. It snowed on me once on a night shoot in February one time near the French Quarter. I have had some of my coldest work days ever there and also some of the hottest in summer. The boxes I showed will work fine for your climate and keep the tortoise healthy and comfortable during those cold spells.

We will help you get there. Hopefully on the quickest, easiest path with the fewest bumps along the way.

Tom,

I borrowed a friends RHP and added insulation. I also left the CHEs in place as a safety. (All temp controlled.). It’s worked well though the CHEs are coming on frequently in order to maintain 80 degree temps. Still. It got me through the holidays. But my question. You mentioned oil filled radiant heat panels. I’m not sure what mine or my friends is but I’m assuming it’s not. I’m going to buy one and was hoping you would have a specific suggestion as to which one to get? I don’t care to redo this thing and still come up short on heat.

 

[Jmeyer]

Tom,

I borrowed a friends RHP and added insulation. I also left the CHEs in place as a safety. (All temp controlled.). It’s worked well though the CHEs are coming on frequently in order to maintain 80 degree temps. Still. It got me through the holidays. But my question. You mentioned oil filled radiant heat panels. I’m not sure what mine or my friends is but I’m assuming it’s not. I’m going to buy one and was hoping you would have a specific suggestion as to which one to get? I don’t care to redo this thing and still come up short on heat.

Also. I did see and liked the simplicity of the RHPs from vivarium but I dont think they are oil filled

 

[Tom]

Tom,

I borrowed a friends RHP and added insulation. I also left the CHEs in place as a safety. (All temp controlled.). It’s worked well though the CHEs are coming on frequently in order to maintain 80 degree temps. Still. It got me through the holidays. But my question. You mentioned oil filled radiant heat panels. I’m not sure what mine or my friends is but I’m assuming it’s not. I’m going to buy one and was hoping you would have a specific suggestion as to which one to get? I don’t care to redo this thing and still come up short on heat.

This is a radiant heat panel, available from Reptile Basics and Kapidolo Farms:


This is a mini radiant oil-filled heater. I usually get these at Walmart, but found this on Amazon. It doesn't glow orange like this silly picture: