Is my Tortoise Shell badly pyramiding?

[SarahSammyx]

Hi, I have had my male Horsefield Tortoise for roughly a year now. His name is Pancake, his name was given to him as he couldnt hold his own bodyweight up, he just used to drag his back legs when walking and if he did lift himself up, it wasnt for long before he splat back down (like a pancake) ? however after a year of living with me he can now hold himself up walking and gets about just fine and doesnt seem to drag himself at all. Iv put it down to lack of calcium resulting to no strength maybe? No idea ? Anyhow, he is fully grown and aparently roughly 20ish years old (iv bin told) His past owners didnt give him the best care and he came to me with an overgrown beak and his shell was already pyramiding. I was told it isnt that bad but I just wanted some reassurance as Iv never had a tortoise before, i took him on purely because i could see he needed a better home. I was just wondering if his shell is healthy, not sure if the pyramiding is any worse or the same. Also would much appreciate any advice on his enclosure. Inside his Viv its about 32degrees on the hot side and the humidity is 50 on the Hygrometer. Iv recently planted some flowers in his Viv so hopefully they will grow ? Is this okay for him? He is an indoor tortoise, he has a Vivarium aswell as a playrun which i put together in my room ? not ideal but i have 3 dogs so he cant really go in the Garden. Will attach pictures of Pancake and his set up. Thank you for any help and your time. ?

 

[Jacqui]

Badly, not what I consider "bad". If you have gotten him up and about, give yourself a pat. The pyramiding issue will always show and the damage under neath will always be there and may some time in the future rear it's head.

 

[wellington]

I agree with Jacqui.
As for temps. He needs 95-100F for basking and areas of 75 to 80F during the day.
Temps can drop into the 60F at night.
50% humidity is good.
The glass enclosure looks to small. He needs a minimum of a 4x8 foot for an adult.
The fourth picture looks like a good size but needs a ramp from where he is in the pic to the bottom.

 

[SarahSammyx]

Badly, not what I consider "bad". If you have gotten him up and about, give yourself a pat. The pyramiding issue will always show and the damage under neath will always be there and may some time in the future rear it's head.

Badly, not what I consider "bad". If you have gotten him up and about, give yourself a pat. The pyramiding issue will always show and the damage under neath will always be there and may some time in the future rear it's head.

Aww thank you, would you say he looks healthy then? Yeah i hoped it may of got better but after researching realised it wont ever fix itself. What do you mean by rear its head.. like get worse? Also, does his set up (viv and everything seem suitable for his breed?) Thank you for your reply and time. Much appreciate it x

 

[SarahSammyx]

I agree with Jacqui.
As for temps. He needs 95-100F for basking and areas of 75 to 80F during the day.
Temps can drop into the 60F at night.
50% humidity is good.
The glass enclosure looks to small. He needs a minimum of a 4x8 foot for an adult.
The fourth picture looks like a good size but needs a ramp from where he is in the pic to the bottom.

Hi, thank you, ah right wow thats hot, thank you ill change his temp. Yeah i agree his Viv is far too small, I usually take his Hide out in the day to give him the extra room when he isnt in his play pen. He was in an even smaller tabletop when i first got him, i struggled to find a large Viv ? The Viv cost me £400 on a deal and was apparently a size 'Large' (the largest one they do) i was very angry when i put it together. But i cant seem to find any sites that sell bigger enclosures... do you know of any places? Id love to get him a bigger enclosuse if i can. The playrun can be made longer as its a makeshift one so i make it longer sometimes. There is a ramp from his old table top to the floor, they have artificial grass on so it blends in but it does have a ramp and he gets up and down fine, i just took a closer picture

 

[wellington]

The ramp looked like steps too me lol.
I gave you temps in Fahrenheit, I was assuming your temp of 32 was celcius?
If you use celcius be sure to convert my temps given to celcius.
The basking I know should be around 38 celcius. The others I'm not sure what the converted temp is.

 

[Yvonne G]

I like the playpen area you made for him. Can he access it on his own or do you have to put him in it? Yes, he has a bit of pyramiding, but he looks fine to me. I'm seeing lots of new growth, and the fact that you have him up on all fours is really great.

 

[SarahSammyx]

The ramp looked like steps too me lol.
I gave you temps in Fahrenheit, I was assuming your temp of 32 was celcius?
If you use celcius be sure to convert my temps given to celcius.
The basking I know should be around 38 celcius. The others I'm not sure what the converted temp is.

Haha aww an ahh right, yes his temp under his heat lamp is 32celcius.. is that not hot enough?

 

[SarahSammyx]

I like the playpen area you made for him. Can he access it on his own or do you have to put him in it? Yes, he has a bit of pyramiding, but he looks fine to me. I'm seeing lots of new growth, and the fact that you have him up on all fours is really great.

No he cant access it on his own as of yet, I would of liked it to attach to his viv so he could use both area's but that would mean id have cut a door in the side of his viv and place the viv on the floor, an really how can you tell he has new growth? Is that good or bad? An aww yeah thank you ?

 

[wellington]

The light line between the scutes I circled is new growth. It's a good thing and will get darker as the new growth ages.

 

[Tom]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. After 20 years, there isn't a whole lot of growing left to do, What is there is there, and will not change much.

Your tortoise needs a 4x8 foot indoor enclosure. I prefer vivs, but a large table would work for an adult too. There is a company in the UK that makes large indoor vivariums at very reasonable prices, but I can never remember the name. Hopefully someone will read this and link the name for you.

I wouldn't recommend the fake grass under a tortoise. Most of them will try to eat it at some point. Even if he hasn't yet, it doesn't mean he won't at some time in the future.

Tortoises really benefit from outside time in warmer weather and real direct sunshine. Is there a way to fence off a section for him or build a large wire cage? You are right to be concerned about the dogs, as they will kill him, but outside time is sooooo beneficial. Summer sun will help prevent MBD...

The dragging of the rear end was likely caused by metabolic bone disease. Lack of calcium is one possible cause, but usually it is lack of D3. D3 can be acquired by basking in direct sunshine, basking under a good indoor UV lamp, or dietarily. I don't see what UV you are using in your indoor viv, but it needs to be something good like an Arcadia 12% HO tube, and you need a meter to set the height correctly and check UV output over time, so you know when to replace the bulb.

Red bulbs should never be used over tortoises. Pet shops are full of bad care info and usually sell you all the wrong products too. You need a flood type incandescent bulb and the basking temp directly under the bulb should be around 36-37C at tortoise shell height. I check this with a digital thermometer set under the bulb and left to "cook" for an hour or two. Prop it up on a roach or something to get it at the same height as your tortoises shell.

Here is all the correct care info for you:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome!

 

[SarahSammyx]

The light line between the scutes I circled is new growth. It's a good thing and will get darker as the new growth ages.
View attachment 338869

Aww thank you, i didnt know that. ?

 

[SarahSammyx]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. After 20 years, there isn't a whole lot of growing left to do, What is there is there, and will not change much.

Your tortoise needs a 4x8 foot indoor enclosure. I prefer vivs, but a large table would work for an adult too. There is a company in the UK that makes large indoor vivariums at very reasonable prices, but I can never remember the name. Hopefully someone will read this and link the name for you.

I wouldn't recommend the fake grass under a tortoise. Most of them will try to eat it at some point. Even if he hasn't yet, it doesn't mean he won't at some time in the future.

Tortoises really benefit from outside time in warmer weather and real direct sunshine. Is there a way to fence off a section for him or build a large wire cage? You are right to be concerned about the dogs, as they will kill him, but outside time is sooooo beneficial. Summer sun will help prevent MBD...

The dragging of the rear end was likely caused by metabolic bone disease. Lack of calcium is one possible cause, but usually it is lack of D3. D3 can be acquired by basking in direct sunshine, basking under a good indoor UV lamp, or dietarily. I don't see what UV you are using in your indoor viv, but it needs to be something good like an Arcadia 12% HO tube, and you need a meter to set the height correctly and check UV output over time, so you know when to replace the bulb.

Red bulbs should never be used over tortoises. Pet shops are full of bad care info and usually sell you all the wrong products too. You need a flood type incandescent bulb and the basking temp directly under the bulb should be around 36-37C at tortoise shell height. I check this with a digital thermometer set under the bulb and left to "cook" for an hour or two. Prop it up on a roach or something to get it at the same height as your tortoises shell.

Here is all the correct care info for you:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome!

That makes sense as before i had him his previous owner had him on a table top with very little/ if not no substrate and not a proper UV light, he just had a heat lamp that has UV in with it, but didnt always have it on.? and was just fed on lettuce and no calcium supplication, hense why i took him as i knew it wasnt a healthy environment for him. I know he is fully grown but i think he was pretty skinny when i first got him so maybe due to him eating proper now he may of grown abit due to him putting abit of weight on?
An aww okay i think what he has atm is 4foot i think, i know its too small ? an aww okay i hope someone does know a link as iv tried looking everywhere. An okay, ill re-think the fake grass, its just as its in my room i didnt fancy soil on my floor and didnt want him walking on the carpet as iv heard free roaming the homes are bad for them too.
I can cage off the outside but my backyard is yard only (flagged) no grass, as where i live all the backyards are like that unless you have a council house. Would he be okay on flags?
I cant remember the bulbs, my partner works in an exotic pet shop and he gave me all the stuff needed as it was a full tank set up it all came in the price. But he said the UV is one of the best. An aww okay, thank you i will give that site a look ?

Also i know its strange but few months ago he was in his mating season and he was very agressive ? i was adviced to get a fake ornament or a rock for him to get his frustration out on if i didnt want to have an actual female, so i did.. i baught a tortoise garden ornament and he loved it, humped it alot ? however, at one point i seen there was blood everywhere, he cut his tail and i could see his vent and tail was pink from rubbing so much. So i stopped him from using it ever since... ita bin fine atm as its not mating season so he has bin calm... but i know its coming back up to that time again soon and im unsure what to do for him? Im abit worried about giving him his fake lady friend back ?

 

[Tom]

i didnt fancy soil on my floor and didnt want him walking on the carpet as iv heard free roaming the homes are bad for them too.

You are correct that free roaming can be deadly. But contained and with the correct temps and lighting is okay, but its hard to maintain the correct temps down on the floor. Best to make the enclosure what it needs to be to meet the tortoises exercise needs.

I can cage off the outside but my backyard is yard only (flagged) no grass, as where i live all the backyards are like that unless you have a council house. Would he be okay on flags?

Flagged? Does that mean covered in flagstones? If yes, that would probably be fine for a Russian as long as the stones don't get too hot in the summer sun, and he has a place to get out of the sun too.

I cant remember the bulbs, my partner works in an exotic pet shop and he gave me all the stuff needed as it was a full tank set up it all came in the price. But he said the UV is one of the best. An aww okay, thank you i will give that site a look ?

No offense to your partner, but historically pet shops sell all the wrong products and give terrible advice too. I used to work in pet shops and I personally parroted all the bad advice that I was taught up until I learned better. Tell us specifically what equipment you've got and we can make sure it is the right stuff. The red bulb and tiny enclosure tell me right off the bat that your partner's pet shop does not understand what a tortoise needs.

Also i know its strange but few months ago he was in his mating season and he was very agressive ? i was adviced to get a fake ornament or a rock for him to get his frustration out on if i didnt want to have an actual female, so i did.. i baught a tortoise garden ornament and he loved it, humped it alot ? however, at one point i seen there was blood everywhere, he cut his tail and i could see his vent and tail was pink from rubbing so much.

I think you learned this lesson. I'd ignore his shenanigans and not try to offer a surrogate female. Better to find a friend, neighbor, or co-worker with an actual female that has been quarantined and fecal checked for parasites, and let him breed. The more captive reproduction we have, they less we need to take from the wild.

 

[SarahSammyx]

You are correct that free roaming can be deadly. But contained and with the correct temps and lighting is okay, but its hard to maintain the correct temps down on the floor. Best to make the enclosure what it needs to be to meet the tortoises exercise needs.


Flagged? Does that mean covered in flagstones? If yes, that would probably be fine for a Russian as long as the stones don't get too hot in the summer sun, and he has a place to get out of the sun too.



No offense to your partner, but historically pet shops sell all the wrong products and give terrible advice too. I used to work in pet shops and I personally parroted all the bad advice that I was taught up until I learned better. Tell us specifically what equipment you've got and we can make sure it is the right stuff. The red bulb and tiny enclosure tell me right off the bat that your partner's pet shop does not understand what a tortoise needs.



I think you learned this lesson. I'd ignore his shenanigans and not try to offer a surrogate female. Better to find a friend, neighbor, or co-worker with an actual female that has been quarantined and fecal checked for parasites, and let him breed. The more captive reproduction we have, they less we need to take from the wild.

Okay, yes i have changed his temps to what you said ? it wasnt off by much. An yeah its not stones its like concrete flat squares, but as its my yard the dogs do wee and poo out there (obviously i clean it up) lols just wasnt sure if it would still be unhygienic for him.
An haha No offence taken, he often tells me that pets shops have no clue ? and yeah he knew the viv was too small but at the time it was the best thing we could get. His red bulb is an Exo-Terra infared 100w basking spot light. And his Light im not sure its a UVB 5% and was green thats all i know ?‍♀️ and that the make is either Exo-Terra or a Arcadia. (Im ashuming it was Exo-Terra as that was the make of almost everything in the bundle) including his Viv is also a Exo Terra make. Unfortunetly i cant remember the watt of the UVB light ? sorry.
An yes i was like nope not doing that again with the lady friend ? and i dont hybernate him either so he cant make any babies right? (So iv heard) however though iv seen how aggressive he was with the fake tortoise id hate to see how he would be with a real tortoise, he would blind the poor female biting her eyes out ? yeah pancake is very grumpy and agressive, doesnt really like anyone haha so grumpy. And i dont particuarly want baby tortoises i worry about giving 1 the wrong care, nevermind babies aswell ? but i do understand, they shouldnt take them from the wild. I have no idea if mine was captive bred or wild caught. We dont actually know and the previouse owners didnt know either as they only had him for roughly a year before me too. So his life is abit of a mystery. Thank you for all your help. Iv attached some pics of the heat bulb.

 

[Tom]

Okay, yes i have changed his temps to what you said ? it wasnt off by much. An yeah its not stones its like concrete flat squares, but as its my yard the dogs do wee and poo out there (obviously i clean it up) lols just wasnt sure if it would still be unhygienic for him.
An haha No offence taken, he often tells me that pets shops have no clue ? and yeah he knew the viv was too small but at the time it was the best thing we could get. His red bulb is an Exo-Terra infared 100w basking spot light. And his Light im not sure its a UVB 5% and was green thats all i know ?‍♀️ and that the make is either Exo-Terra or a Arcadia. (Im ashuming it was Exo-Terra as that was the make of almost everything in the bundle) including his Viv is also a Exo Terra make. Unfortunetly i cant remember the watt of the UVB light ? sorry.
An yes i was like nope not doing that again with the lady friend ? and i dont hybernate him either so he cant make any babies right? (So iv heard) however though iv seen how aggressive he was with the fake tortoise id hate to see how he would be with a real tortoise, he would blind the poor female biting her eyes out ? yeah pancake is very grumpy and agressive, doesnt really like anyone haha so grumpy. And i dont particuarly want baby tortoises i worry about giving 1 the wrong care, nevermind babies aswell ? but i do understand, they shouldnt take them from the wild. I have no idea if mine was captive bred or wild caught. We dont actually know and the previouse owners didnt know either as they only had him for roughly a year before me too. So his life is abit of a mystery. Thank you for all your help. Iv attached some pics of the heat bulb.

Spot bulbs should not be used because they cause pyramiding. Red bulbs should never be used because it messes up their little tortoise brains. You need a white incandescent flood light for daytime basking.

The UV needs to be minimum 10.0 and HO style. The type you have now is doing nothing to help your tortoise. This needs to be upgraded ASAP.

Its okay to take them from the wild in limited numbers. Without that none of us would have any animals at all. The problem is when people are taking too many. Breeding your male and letting the owner of the female take care of eggs and babies would be one way to reduce the demand for wild caught ones. If you are not into this, that is okay, but I like to encourage it when I can. Lack of hibernation will not prevent breeding. They can still reproduce just fine.

 

[SarahSammyx]

Could you send me a link to both the ones you mean please? Then i know iv deffinitely not made anu mistakes.. i also seen on the page you sent me about a uv meter to check what rays are coming from the light? Do you have a link to one of them aswell please. As i didnt know about needing one of them. Thank you, the picture is exactly what he has in his tank, the green UVB ? i feel really bad now if im damaging his little brain or eyes ? Id like to fix it so he had the bestsuitable lighting for him if you could help please

 

[zolasmum]

Okay, yes i have changed his temps to what you said ? it wasnt off by much. An yeah its not stones its like concrete flat squares, but as its my yard the dogs do wee and poo out there (obviously i clean it up) lols just wasnt sure if it would still be unhygienic for him.
An haha No offence taken, he often tells me that pets shops have no clue ? and yeah he knew the viv was too small but at the time it was the best thing we could get. His red bulb is an Exo-Terra infared 100w basking spot light. And his Light im not sure its a UVB 5% and was green thats all i know ?‍♀️ and that the make is either Exo-Terra or a Arcadia. (Im ashuming it was Exo-Terra as that was the make of almost everything in the bundle) including his Viv is also a Exo Terra make. Unfortunetly i cant remember the watt of the UVB light ? sorry.
An yes i was like nope not doing that again with the lady friend ? and i dont hybernate him either so he cant make any babies right? (So iv heard) however though iv seen how aggressive he was with the fake tortoise id hate to see how he would be with a real tortoise, he would blind the poor female biting her eyes out ? yeah pancake is very grumpy and agressive, doesnt really like anyone haha so grumpy. And i dont particuarly want baby tortoises i worry about giving 1 the wrong care, nevermind babies aswell ? but i do understand, they shouldnt take them from the wild. I have no idea if mine was captive bred or wild caught. We dont actually know and the previouse owners didnt know either as they only had him for roughly a year before me too. So his life is abit of a mystery. Thank you for all your help. Iv attached some pics of the heat bulb.

I don't think there are any new tortoises in the uk which have been taken from the wild -it is illegal, and has been for quite a while now - they have to be captive bred,since about 30 years ago, or more, and you should get a certificate when you buy one with its date of hatching, etc. Of course there are older tortoises who may have been wild caught and which still produce eggs.
Angie

 

[SarahSammyx]

I don't think there are any new tortoises in the uk which have been taken from the wild -it is illegal, and has been for quite a while now - they have to be captive bred,since about 30 years ago, or more, and you should get a certificate when you buy one with its date of hatching, etc. Of course there are older tortoises who may have been wild caught and which still produce eggs.
Angie

Aw right i didnt know that sorry and yeah i know, i didnt buy him though. Someone I knew had him and i seen he wasnt getting the proper care so i offered to take him and they just gave him me. No paper work or anything an never asked for any money. Think they just wanted rid of him so i took him

 

[Tim Carlisle]

Tom is wise beyond his years. lol