Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobbyno1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol
Yeah, most of my friends suck too.
Keeping tortoises together
- Thread starter Turborich
- Start date
Yeah, most of my friends suck too.
Not to stray too far off topic, but no, I absolutely advise against the mixing of species. I keep mostly marginated tortoises, a single Turkish ibera, a single Eastern Hermanns tortoise, and, my newest addition, a small colony of baby radiated tortoises. I keep the Hermanns and the Greek in the eastern end of my property (not together, mind you, but within their own respective enclosures. I keep the marginated tortoises in a series of pens clustered around the neutral grazing area (I guess it's the marginated grazing area, for clarity's sake, given that they are the only animals with access to it; I do use seed from this area to sow the hermanni/ibera area) in the center of the property. And I keep the radiateds in the newly setup western end of my property (bought some hibiscus for the adult radiated area and planted a bunch of other stuff; none of my rads are adults yet, so this area only serves as a planter garden for the kiddos at the moment, but when they grow large enough not to be carried off by birds, they will have full access to it). I use a separate set of tools for handling, watering, and maintaining all animals. I even have separate sandals for walking about the different areas (I use the same sandals for Graecus and Mr Lucky, the ibera and the hermanni, because I've had both of them for so long and, to be honest, back when I was more of an idiot than I am today, Mr Lucky has escaped into Graecus' enclosure and challenged the old man to fights that he's lost, but this hasn't happened for a long time now, so I figure that were the two of them to cause one another any trouble concerning direct infection, it would have happened; regardless, this is something of a weak spot in my normally steadfast quarantine protocol, but I maintain complete separation otherwise).
I have a three way divider on the water nozzle out back, and I have three hoses connected, one green, one black, one red. Green goes to Graecus and Mr Lucky's area, black to the marginated paddocks, and red to the radiated tortoises. This way, I don't have to drag a wet hose between paddocks. Granted, they all meet at the same water source, but even I am of the belief that one can be too thorough, though I must admit I did think about it a lot. One of these days, I need to lay some pvc and set up three nozzles, but running a shop and the regular routine, you know how it is. I bathe all tortoises in bus tubs purchased at a local restaurant supply store, and each tub is marked to indicate which tortoise belongs in which tub. I clean the tubs out on the side of my house, an area to which no tortoises have access. I use the soak water on the front yard flower beds and the yard itself.
Cinder blocks are my preferred fencing material, given that you can stack them however high you need. Plus they absorb quite a bit of water, which is great for the flash floods we have here in South Texas. When I was younger and more of a fool, I used a lot of wood, and when a flash flood would happen, I would have to run out in the damned rain and save the tortoises on the south central point of the property, the low spot where all my females now sit. Since using the cinders and filling in that area with deeper soil, I don't have any issues. Babies even hatch out of the ground on their own when I miss nests.
Apologies, I feel I've veered wildly off topic just to respond to the question of whether or not I advocate for the mixing of species. Bottom line, I absolutely, positively do not. No species mixing, not even a "well, these species are sympatric, so maybe..." No, I would never recommend mixing. Not judging those who do, and I'm not wanting to start any arguments in this thread over the matter given how controversial this subject is, but no, I don't practice mixing and never recommend it.
T.G.
This forum is a highly valuable resource, and I always wish that I had more time to contribute to it. Unfortunately, I'm one of those guys who never has his phone with him, so I often just don't take pictures, which is a big part of this forum, and I really should contribute more in the way of that. Apologies everyone, but it's just not my first instinct to snap photos when I'm relaxing with the tortoises.Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby
But yes, I was always fortunate for the fact that my old man and uncle were always very much into tortoises. My grandfather brought home a California desert tortoise when my father was only six years old back in the fifties. And they did everything wrong. Hole drilled in the shell to tether the animal, feeding iceberg lettuce, painting the shell, not providing proper shelter, leaving the poor beast to dig a shallow burrow the length of the tether to escape the heat. I mean, absolutely every single thing wrong. And when I got my first Greek tortoise Graecus, I wasn't much better. I mean, sure, the books back then talked about how barbaric it was to drill and tether a tortoise, because no kidding. But the diet advice, and the products available in pet shops, all of it was, at best, suspect. Having debates with my dad and uncle, reading whatever I could get my hands on, that was the only way to advance one's knowledge back then, and our knowledge is still fairly elementary. I mean, there are still species largely unrepresented in captivity because we lack basic knowledge of their reproductive biology. In the age of the mapped human genome, google maps and solar powered Martian rovers, I find that crazy. But that is starting to change, and I'm absolutely ecstatic to know that some of these mysteries that confounded me as a kid are so much closer to being solved.
T.G.
Joetheyido
Member
Just my 2cents. I so far keep Herman's, stars and one redfoot. The Herman's where adopted from my wife's sisters as they didn't have the time for them anymore and I could look after them better, they have been together for 11years, both female and never had a problem, the both ignore each other most of the time.
My possibly female stars I have had for 3ish years and there about 4yrs old, possible from the same batch, they have both been fine, never seen any signs, they tend to ignore each other and do what they like. my redfoot I have had for 2 1/2years and is about 3yrs old and I would never get He/she a friend as he eats whatever is in front of him. All that may change or may not who knows but I will cross that bridge when it happens. They all have space (which is important)to do what they want but all tend to be right next to each other most if the time. Most of the info I get for my Herman's is from friends a relative's that have kept these type of torts for 30+yrs.
My possibly female stars I have had for 3ish years and there about 4yrs old, possible from the same batch, they have both been fine, never seen any signs, they tend to ignore each other and do what they like. my redfoot I have had for 2 1/2years and is about 3yrs old and I would never get He/she a friend as he eats whatever is in front of him. All that may change or may not who knows but I will cross that bridge when it happens. They all have space (which is important)to do what they want but all tend to be right next to each other most if the time. Most of the info I get for my Herman's is from friends a relative's that have kept these type of torts for 30+yrs.
Blackie
New Member
MyLucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby
Just curious, how much space are you providing the two Hermanns that are getting along very well?
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2014
- Messages
- 29,062
- Location (City and/or State)
- South Eastern Florida (U.S.A.)/Rock Hill S.C.
I don't think anyone here is saying that pairs (not necessarily a sexed pair) of any particular tortoise NEVER work in ANY circumstances.
What We Want People To know...Especially new tortoise keepers is that in general, pairs are not ideal. They often lead to sickness and even physical harm. To such an extent that as a collective, we just warn new members to not attempt it. Or at the very least, if they're already in that situation, to be on the lookout for the signs and to be prepared to separate them.
Some tortoise species are more calm. Some are more aggressive. But in general, these are not "pack" animals. They don't want or need company. And they should not be kept in pairs.
So, it's not CAN YOU. It's SHOULD YOU.
This is offered as a general rule to help owners and their tortoises.
(Especially their tortoises)
What We Want People To know...Especially new tortoise keepers is that in general, pairs are not ideal. They often lead to sickness and even physical harm. To such an extent that as a collective, we just warn new members to not attempt it. Or at the very least, if they're already in that situation, to be on the lookout for the signs and to be prepared to separate them.
Some tortoise species are more calm. Some are more aggressive. But in general, these are not "pack" animals. They don't want or need company. And they should not be kept in pairs.
So, it's not CAN YOU. It's SHOULD YOU.
This is offered as a general rule to help owners and their tortoises.
(Especially their tortoises)
Turborich
New Member
Well guys, here's an update. I used to have what I believed was a male in my backyard and what I know is a male in my front yard. I posted pics of them both on here somewhere. Anyways, they both stayed separate, however they both tried digging to get the the others yard. There is concrete between the two yards so they could never actually reach each other, but could just see one through the fence a bit.
Put them together and all seemed fine a dandy to me. I caught the known male trying to mate with the other one. Perhaps the other is a female or perhaps it's a sign of dominance? I'm really not sure. Anyhow, both have been together now for several days, they both go under my shed to sleep and escape the daytime heat and both come out to eat. Sometimes when they are both out at the same time the known male will head bob a bit at the other one, but that's about it. No aggressive or harmful behavior.
So in my case, I will continue to monitor them and see how they do. So far everything is fine. They did have a good amount of time to smell and see each other through the fence before I actually let them contact each other.
The known males tail is a bit longer, the scoop on the lower front of his shell is just a bit longer and he has just a bit more of a concave to the underside of his shell. So who knows...
People also say that you can't ever have two male leopard geckos together. My son has had two males in the same terrarium for a year. Both are good eaters, never fight and sleep together. Always exceptions to the rules I would say.
Put them together and all seemed fine a dandy to me. I caught the known male trying to mate with the other one. Perhaps the other is a female or perhaps it's a sign of dominance? I'm really not sure. Anyhow, both have been together now for several days, they both go under my shed to sleep and escape the daytime heat and both come out to eat. Sometimes when they are both out at the same time the known male will head bob a bit at the other one, but that's about it. No aggressive or harmful behavior.
So in my case, I will continue to monitor them and see how they do. So far everything is fine. They did have a good amount of time to smell and see each other through the fence before I actually let them contact each other.
The known males tail is a bit longer, the scoop on the lower front of his shell is just a bit longer and he has just a bit more of a concave to the underside of his shell. So who knows...
People also say that you can't ever have two male leopard geckos together. My son has had two males in the same terrarium for a year. Both are good eaters, never fight and sleep together. Always exceptions to the rules I would say.
You just described aggression. Head bobbing and mounting? Those are ways to assert dominance, unless ones a female, in that case it could be very stressful for the female. I would definitely separate them. They are not friends, and the only thing it can bring is stress.
I would also seriously recommend separating the leopard geckos. They are not “friends”, they do not “get lonely”, and the most they can ever do is tolerate each other. If anything, the most they could do is stress each other out. That could also be why they haven’t been “aggressive” yet; no one wants to make the first move. They are not benefiting in any way by being together, and the only thing it can possibly bring is stress.
Please keep in mind that most aggression is mental, and it’s not just biting. Following, cuddling, sitting on food, not letting the other eat, mounting, always sleeping in the same hide when other hides are present, etc. are all clear signs of aggression.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2017
- Messages
- 5,750
- Location (City and/or State)
- Low desert 50 mi SE of Palm Springs CA
T.G., I say stray all you like! I find your posts to be fascinating! Keep them coming!
I've been keeping tortoises for more than 30 years too. I/we did a lot of things wrong during that time and not everyone has figured this out. Just because your two aren't openly trying to bite and kill each other doesn't mean its not a problem. Being "right next to each other all the time" is called crowding. Its one or both telling the other: "Hey jackass! This territory is occupied. Why don't you leave and go find your own place?" Only they can't leave, and the chronic stress of the situation takes a toll over time.
Is it fun for you to come here, ask for advice, have experienced members spend a lot of their time typing out detailed thoughtful answers to your questions and then completely ignoring what you are unanimously told?
You're not sure? I'm sure. I know exactly what is happening there, and that's why we all told you not to do it.
Everything you just described is aggressive, harmful behavior. Mounting, head bobbing, and trying to crowd each other out of the same burrow is classic tortoise aggression and its bad.
Everything is NOT fine. They are at war, and you've failed to recognize the signs. It is obvious how they are doing. Allowing this to continue is literally animal cruelty. It goes against their nature and doing what you are doing has killed more tortoises than I can count. You need to separate them ASAP. You can't claim you didn't know better anymore after reading this thread and this post.
We aren't talking about leopard geckos. We are talking about tortoises. Totally different story. And your tortoises are proving the rule, not an exception to it.
This is where you are headed. After there is a missing eye, scales removed from the front legs, or a dead tortoise that cooked in the summer sun after the other one flipped it, you will wish you had listened to the people you asked for advice.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
Turborich
New Member
Geez, You expect me to "do as I'm told?" You obviously have some type of a problem dude. It's easy for you to bash on others and claim that professionals are wrong. Take a chill pill guy. I doubt if you have an operation remotely close to Kenan's, yet you bash him too.
I like reading posts on the forums until you show up acting like the tortoise God and start talking down to people. Might work on somebody else, but not me. I have found a wealth of information, just not from you...
Turborich
New Member
Tom, the tortoises aren't at war, head bobbing is completely normal mating behavior from the male, nobody ever said they are crowding the same burrow, i said they both go under my shed to escape the heat. You obviously see everything in an extreme scenario. Get a life dude.
Competitive aggression is necessary in nature to maintain an optimal gene pool. But the torts also have an out of escape unlike in a pen. Aggression equals stress and we as keepers shouldn’t want our torts under constant stress of aggressive behavior by an alpha, they need some relief. Let’s move to relieve stress in our torts and in this post.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2014
- Messages
- 29,062
- Location (City and/or State)
- South Eastern Florida (U.S.A.)/Rock Hill S.C.
I didn't notice anything mentioned by @Tom that wasn't true and this was all great advice. Learned the hard way. (Experience)
Frank response shouldn't feel like it is rude.
We don't know you. The information shouldn't be seen as an attack on you. It's for the welfare of your animals.
What you do or choose not to do is up to you. But to continue on your current path would be nothing short of foolish.
I’d rather learn from others mistakes and experiences than to go through them myself. People convey opinions and experiences at different levels. Advice can be heeded or ignored. I don’t always go by the “suggestions” read here. Just ask yourself “from what I know and from what I’ve read, is this best for my tort?”
Learn from everyone else’s mistakes. We don’t tell you these things for no reason, and Tom was entirely correct.
Kenan is nowhere near an expert, his tortoise information is not even close to being up to par, and my tortoise has a ring of pyramiding to show for it.
I believed that I could keep him in an open topped enclosure, and I believed that pyramiding was normal. I thought I could just spray the tank once or twice a day, and it would be fine. I was even ‘this’ close to buying him a “friend”.
Follow the forum’s advice. We are making sure that you don’t follow the same path as others, and at this point, it looks like it might turn out that way.
Antoni
Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2016
- Messages
- 110
This forum is great. The shared experience and knowledge proves to prevent mistakes that happened with the more experienced if the advice is followed. BUT..... i have seen some of you in another thread basically bully this kid into returning his tort. Yes i know that he didn’t know what he got himself into. And should’ve done the research first. But we dont know exactly whats going on. It could’ve been a bday present or a graduation surprise or even just a surprise companion from a loved one. Wouldnt it be nicer if we’re to guide them rather than telling them “if you cant provide this, or do this, return it”. He was so extatic for his new friend and everyone in the thread told him to return it. When i read it, all our info was correct but that was Harsh no matter how u look at it. statistically im guessing about 40% of the forums visitors here are kids to teenagers getting info to care for their new tortoise, maybe more. Not everyone has years and years of care experience, ir mature enough for this kind of responsibility. But i would never tell a kid “return that puppy because your parents will end up taking care of it” (which is 100% of the time) Again i love this place. I learned so much and have seen accurate results. And i try my best to give advice to the new owners in a way that they dont feel pressured. Because in the end we cant force them to do the other. Also our information is “live” and by that i mean we discover new things and techniques which is why its hard to introduce it to a crowd, specially taught by pet stores who cares only for money. I remember buying my sulcata and the guy told me to just soak twice a week and feed lettuce. That they’re not high maintenance at all.. i went here and OMG!! Was he wrong lol i was upset. Thanks to this place he’s a growing healthy smooth sulcuta. I love it here but lets try to help the torts by helping them.
Yes, head bobbing is a normal mating behaviour, but it is also a sign of aggression, one tort to another, regardless of the sex. I'm sorry you took offense to what Tom said to you, but everything he said has value. Don't forget, we only know what you write. You see the actual tortoises in real life. We can only tell you our experience from what you said. Maybe we don't have the big picture, but Tom does have a lot of experience with tortoises, and he's sharing with you what he knows from first hand.
