would I be able to keep two leopard tortoise hatchling in a 50 gallon tank? I heard they're not very aggressive or very territorial. (Babcocki) I know I need to watch out for aggressive nipping and be ready to seperate them if necessary but generally speaking, are they calm by nature? As in do they get along and not bully other leopard tortoise? Mine is 3 and a half month old and I really want to keep another one. I know i know, theyre solitary but I really want one and a lot of infos on the internet said they can be housed together in a big enclosure. Also would it be better to keep male and male? Female female? Female male? My tortoise is still very young so it's very hard to tell whether mine is a male or a female, but maybe you seasoned veterans might know.
Leopard tortoise hatchlings together?
- Thread starter Dave Dela Rosa
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That is too small for two. They will not do good as a pair and the older one will most likely start the bulling right away as he is already used to being alone. You may want another one, but the tort you already have does not. Set up a separate enclosure if you want another one.
Aww that sucks! But ok thank you, i was planning on getting from the same breeder i had i finally found his contact and i was gonna get the same age from the same clutch
Get a bigger enclosure and get more then one. Or just set up another enclosure.
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I don't intend to sound like anything other than someone offering friendly advise. That said I'll be efficient about it as well.
The growth pattern (not color) indicates the tortoises environment is too dry. Enclosed the habitat such that humidity will be 85%RH. It's not that difficult, you can use cooking foil to make a cover that has contact with light fixture, or make some sort of tent pole thing and use plastic (plastic should not come in direct contact with lamps or their fixtures). Baby tortoise do not walk the open plains or grasslands, they stay hunkered down in small animal burrows (leo don't dig their own) or hidden in foliage close to the ground. These kinds of predator avoidance places have high RH. It's okay to have moist substrate, even soking wet, as long as they can also sit on a small clay tile or flat rock. I raise mine in what some folks call a swamp, no shell issues ever.
here is an older thread showing that super wet substrate http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/chambers-my-take-of-the-idea.77044/
Many member of TFO who are super handy with tools have made professional furniture looking enclosures, I went for inexpensive utility.
That kind of water dish is counter-intuitive for most tortoises, walking up to get to water. A clay saucer sunk into the substrate will accomplish easier access and a large surface area for humidity charging the air. Clay or plastic with pebbles (pea gravel, or bits to big to eat, not aquarium gravel, they might try to eat it) covering the bottom, they need to be able to use their little tiny toenails to move about, plastic is to slippery for good traction.
Aquariums can make great enclosures as you get to see the tortoise, many folks might suggest it is inappropriate. The only problem is they are heavy for large ones and there is never a 'too big' an enclosure. If your little ones gets the habit of trying to get through the glass you can use green masking tape to make a short visual barrier at tortoise eye height. Any color will work, but green (to me) looks better.
On the population count, four or five do okay until they get their mating interest going, then there can be disagreements. Two and often three is not a good co-habitation number. For each additional tortoise you should follow the x=1 rule (that's what I call it, based on cat boxes for indoor cats) if you have one tortoise two hides, two water dishes, two feeding stations are a good way to keep their lives interesting. If you have four, then x (the four tortoises) + 1 means five small hides, five places food is put down, etc. To be fair, I don't follow this that strictly, but it is a good rule of thumbs when considering house tortoises together.
Leo's are cool.
The growth pattern (not color) indicates the tortoises environment is too dry. Enclosed the habitat such that humidity will be 85%RH. It's not that difficult, you can use cooking foil to make a cover that has contact with light fixture, or make some sort of tent pole thing and use plastic (plastic should not come in direct contact with lamps or their fixtures). Baby tortoise do not walk the open plains or grasslands, they stay hunkered down in small animal burrows (leo don't dig their own) or hidden in foliage close to the ground. These kinds of predator avoidance places have high RH. It's okay to have moist substrate, even soking wet, as long as they can also sit on a small clay tile or flat rock. I raise mine in what some folks call a swamp, no shell issues ever.
here is an older thread showing that super wet substrate http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/chambers-my-take-of-the-idea.77044/
Many member of TFO who are super handy with tools have made professional furniture looking enclosures, I went for inexpensive utility.
That kind of water dish is counter-intuitive for most tortoises, walking up to get to water. A clay saucer sunk into the substrate will accomplish easier access and a large surface area for humidity charging the air. Clay or plastic with pebbles (pea gravel, or bits to big to eat, not aquarium gravel, they might try to eat it) covering the bottom, they need to be able to use their little tiny toenails to move about, plastic is to slippery for good traction.
Aquariums can make great enclosures as you get to see the tortoise, many folks might suggest it is inappropriate. The only problem is they are heavy for large ones and there is never a 'too big' an enclosure. If your little ones gets the habit of trying to get through the glass you can use green masking tape to make a short visual barrier at tortoise eye height. Any color will work, but green (to me) looks better.
On the population count, four or five do okay until they get their mating interest going, then there can be disagreements. Two and often three is not a good co-habitation number. For each additional tortoise you should follow the x=1 rule (that's what I call it, based on cat boxes for indoor cats) if you have one tortoise two hides, two water dishes, two feeding stations are a good way to keep their lives interesting. If you have four, then x (the four tortoises) + 1 means five small hides, five places food is put down, etc. To be fair, I don't follow this that strictly, but it is a good rule of thumbs when considering house tortoises together.
Leo's are cool.
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Dave
I wish people new what aggressive behavior is : It starts long before the biting and pushing ! It can be looks , controlling the water dish , stopping one from eating , or laying on top one one so it cannt move freely . But as you see pushing and bitting is easy to see the other things so many people say isn't that cute but it's still bulling !
I wish people new what aggressive behavior is : It starts long before the biting and pushing ! It can be looks , controlling the water dish , stopping one from eating , or laying on top one one so it cannt move freely . But as you see pushing and bitting is easy to see the other things so many people say isn't that cute but it's still bulling !
Hey thanks for the advice but these are pictures from two days ago, the enclosure is now covered and no one has ever said that the growth pattern means its too dry but ill definitely look into it. But that plastic tub humidity was usually at 60, because i live in a very humid place, and no not just what the weather forecast says but what my two hygrometer also said. And if you read the posting it says 50 gallon TANK, I do have two feedings and two caves one moist one warm, two feeding stations just for my one tortoise. Yeah i think if im going to keep more than one ill just get another enclosure.
And no im not trying to be rude, but you just gave out so much unnecessary advice when I said 50 gallon tank, doesn't seem like you read the entire question and just readily got triggered by the picture without even reading.
Hey thanks ill definitely look into that more, didnt know the stares could be bullying ill defintely take that advice before i go and get another one
What, in your mind is the difference between a "tank" and an "aquarium"?
In addition to what Will said about the water bowl, I'll add that they are a serious tipping/drowning hazard. Several people using those have posted that they found their tortoise upside down in those ramped water bowls. Those bowls are great for lizards and snakes, but dangerous for tortoises.
Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Your little baby is showing significant pyramiding for such a small little guy/gal. I re-read Will's post and I thought he worded it well and shared some good info. I can't see what would be upsetting about it to you. Maybe its because I know Will personally, so I can picture his expression and imagine his tone as if he was speaking those words. Since you are new to the forum, I can understand that you don't really know who you are talking to and getting advice from. It could be an eager 12 year old kid who means well, or it could be sage advice from someone with decades of varied tortoise experience, including studying tortoises in the wild and pursuing scientific research. I want you to know that Will falls into the latter category. When Will speaks, I listen. He has corrected my ignorance many times in the past and I thank him for sharing his knowledge and making me a better tortoise keeper. I hope that going forward, you'll listen to his advice too. We are very lucky to have a few seasoned veterans here that pop in and share their knowledge in well thought out, eloquent posts. Will is one of them. If Bill Z or MarkW ever respond to one of your posts, you should cherish every word too. I do. Yvonne is another one who has some hard earned knowledge from her decades of experience. I tell her how eloquent her posts are and she shush's me, but she offers excellent insight too.
My point is that you got some help that you needed from a very experienced and knowledgeable tortoise guru. I think his advice was necessary, given what has been demonstrated. That might not have been what you were asking about, but its info that will help your tortoise live a better life.
Finally, about your original question, tortoises should never be kept in pairs. One will always be dominant and the chronic stress of trying to get the submissive one to leave the territory day after day is bad for both of them.
Howdy Dave,
And a hardy welcome to "TheTortoiseForum". One of the great things about this here forum are all the members. Most of these here members are active keepers that freely share their years of experience with new keepers to ensure they and their tortoises have the long, healthy lives they are capable of and expected to have in captivity.
As Will has pointed out to you, that water-dish you have is a, "no- good" for tortoises type. The ramp is very good for flipping a tortoise onto its back, leaving the poor thing exhausted with its head submerged in water leading to at the least suffering health issues and very often death from drowning. Not pleasant in the least.
Read the threads in the specie specific section for the best modern information for raising your tortoise. Here you will find information about using a planter water catch-basin as a safe, inexpensive waterdish for your tortoise because they can crawl in and out with ease.
You'll also be exposed to the reasons pairs, typically do not do well together. Unfortunately, many people buy two hatchlings thinking the first one, "needs a friend to snuggle with" not realizing what they are seeing is dominance behavior. When they bully each other, they don't square off in the playground. One just always gets the best of the food, and the best of the heat, and the best of everything, which results in poor growth and health of one and thriving in the other. Here is a picture of two rescues I took in. They are from the same clutch of hatchlings and were raised together in the same inclosure, given the same food and all. The couple that gave them to me couldn't understand the size difference because they always snuggled together and they thought the "bumpy shells were cool looking".
The larger of the two was a female and she was so aggressive towards other sulcatas she had to live alone. She was the first female I've seen that was aggressive.
So read those threads. Ask questions when you don't understand something and learn and help others. Sooner than you know, you'll be helping out new folks by answering their questions.
Welcome To TheTortoiseForum,
Cowboy Ken
And a hardy welcome to "TheTortoiseForum". One of the great things about this here forum are all the members. Most of these here members are active keepers that freely share their years of experience with new keepers to ensure they and their tortoises have the long, healthy lives they are capable of and expected to have in captivity.
As Will has pointed out to you, that water-dish you have is a, "no- good" for tortoises type. The ramp is very good for flipping a tortoise onto its back, leaving the poor thing exhausted with its head submerged in water leading to at the least suffering health issues and very often death from drowning. Not pleasant in the least.
Read the threads in the specie specific section for the best modern information for raising your tortoise. Here you will find information about using a planter water catch-basin as a safe, inexpensive waterdish for your tortoise because they can crawl in and out with ease.
You'll also be exposed to the reasons pairs, typically do not do well together. Unfortunately, many people buy two hatchlings thinking the first one, "needs a friend to snuggle with" not realizing what they are seeing is dominance behavior. When they bully each other, they don't square off in the playground. One just always gets the best of the food, and the best of the heat, and the best of everything, which results in poor growth and health of one and thriving in the other. Here is a picture of two rescues I took in. They are from the same clutch of hatchlings and were raised together in the same inclosure, given the same food and all. The couple that gave them to me couldn't understand the size difference because they always snuggled together and they thought the "bumpy shells were cool looking".
The larger of the two was a female and she was so aggressive towards other sulcatas she had to live alone. She was the first female I've seen that was aggressive.
So read those threads. Ask questions when you don't understand something and learn and help others. Sooner than you know, you'll be helping out new folks by answering their questions.
Welcome To TheTortoiseForum,
Cowboy Ken
you dont assume a 50 gallon tank is either an aquarium or a terrarium? strange. but didn't you told me that already? not trying to be an ahole but youre being very bias, just because he is your "teacher" youre defending him and I totally understand that. but look at it at my point of view? that wasn't even the question I asked, and since you always reply to my questions you should know that by now that i asked about the white flakes when i first got him, meaning he already had signs of pyramiding before I even got him. so how is it necessary when its clearly not on that condition anymore and I have informed you about it, you make it seem like I havent post about it. Its kind of common sense, that the tortoise isnt in the tub anymore because i did say a tank right?
my point is theres no need to bash on the plastic tub when I clearly stated that it was on a 50 gallon TANK right, when we aren't even talking about ENCLOSURES? right.
like wellington, he read the question and just said no it doesnt suffice because its too small and never keep it at a pair. so I don't understand your point, how can I take advice when it's already stated, and how can I not be offended when he clearly misread and didn't understand that the tortoise is on a different enclosure now, and then proceed on telling me on how to set it up? At first it wasn't even an issue because even if he didn't pay attention to it, everyone makes mistakes, but you've kind of instigated it by taking sides. Now that your taking sides it it actually became an issue, you took his side and im defending my point.
Hey thanks for the reply! the water dish is now even more burred so my tortoise don't have to climb over it, my tortoise just walks and then drinks. I actually changed it yesterday, like I stated before this was a past picture, but it's still my fault for not stating it's not a recent picture. the tort is now in a 50 gallon tank, water submerged in substrate so there's no need for climbing. I do appreciate being respectful with noticing the picture,
As for getting another tortoise, I will definitely hold off until i make a bigger enclosure or maybe just get 3 or 4 as a group later on when they are outside. thanks so much!
I'm not seeing where Will or anyone else mentioned a tub. This is why I'm not understanding your response. You said "tank" in the first sentence of your post, so I don't see where this confusion is coming from. I think everyone reading understands we are talking about a 50 gallon tank/aquarium/vivarium.
Who was bashing on a tub? I feel like I missed something.
I don't think it is/was clear, what conditions he is/was being kept in. You said "tank" and I didn't see anyone mention tub. I think everyone in the conversation is talking about your tank. Will saw the pyramiding, and decide to share some tips about closing in your tank to maintain higher humidity. I don't know if he's even seen your previous threads, and I can't find mention of your previous enclosure anywhere in his thread.
Last thing: I have no intention of instigating or taking sides. I was just trying to be helpful and let you know that the person who took time out of their day to try and help you knows what he is talking about. You have no way of knowing who is on the other end of that keyboard, and I do know who is on the other end of that keyboard. Anyway, just light tortoise conversation here. No need for anyone to take offense or get upset.
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On the tank, aquarium, or whatever the enclosure may be called, the point was micro-climate management, and I suggested a few ways to facilitate that with a cover. Best way to evaluate those conditions in the enclosure is with quality temp RH measuring devices.
I was 'triggered' by observing the start of pyramiding, from your photo. The image also offers that the tortoise was kept in a mixing tub. I use those as well. Your text suggested the tortoise might be co-housed with another based on the result of your question regarding housing more than one and that was the potential incentive to move it/them to a 50 gallon tank. If you moved the single tortoise to the 50 gallon tank/aquarium whatever, that's great. I still offer the suggestion that you manage the micro-climate of the enclosure.
I represent more of the info on the internet that has brought you confusion, sorry about that if you found my comments confusing.
I was 'triggered' by observing the start of pyramiding, from your photo. The image also offers that the tortoise was kept in a mixing tub. I use those as well. Your text suggested the tortoise might be co-housed with another based on the result of your question regarding housing more than one and that was the potential incentive to move it/them to a 50 gallon tank. If you moved the single tortoise to the 50 gallon tank/aquarium whatever, that's great. I still offer the suggestion that you manage the micro-climate of the enclosure.
I represent more of the info on the internet that has brought you confusion, sorry about that if you found my comments confusing.
Hi Dave and welcome to TFO! Try not to take things personally (maybe you're not), although I know from experience it is easy to do especially when you feel like you are being told what you are doing might be wrong. I started out with 2 Leopards together. They are siblings and I got them when they were tiny hatchlings. I kept them together for many months before I realized that it wasn't a good idea. As others have said, the signs of bullying can be very subtle. The result was one sibling getting much less food than the other and when they both got sick (another story) the smaller of the 2 came very close to dying. The advice I got here, although sometimes hard to hear, saved my tort's life and they are both doing very well today and have been since I separated them.
