Lighting info beyond anecdotes?

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I'm trying to find information about lighting options for my tortoise ... info beyond the anecdotal stuff that seems to be swapped back and forth here and other reptile forums.

"Only a crazy person would use a coiled c.f. (or some other type of light), because it'll blind your turtle (or melt them) ... I heard from a guy!"

Does anyone have links to studies or research?

Thanks,

Jamie

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Not necessarily research but this happened to me

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/coil-bulbs.166917/

 

[Minority2]

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-info.htm
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/compact-fluorescent-bulbs-the-discussion.53345/'

Many of the people that give advice in this forum has seen these types of problems firsthand. We have experienced them as well as read similar stories from other owners thorough the years. The explanations tend to get shorter and more simplified the more and more you write about them.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-info.htm
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/compact-fluorescent-bulbs-the-discussion.53345/'

Many of the people that give advice in this forum has seen these types of problems firsthand. We have experienced them as well as read similar stories from other owners thorough the years. The explanations tend to get shorter and more simplified the more and more you write about them.

Thanks for the informative link, and I get the thing about repeated sharing over time, I really do.

My confusion/frustration comes from prescription without description (or factual basis) in this and other reptile forums.

I've been told categorically that: avocado fruit is poisonous, that coconut oil will inhibit my tortoise's ability to uptake uv effectively, that cypress mulch is an unsatisfactory bedding material that will lead to fungal and respiratory problems.

This seems the best source of info I've found online, by far, but still seems plagued by people passing off anecdote as fact, so I'm finding myself looking for backup information more than usual to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Again, thanks,

Jamie

 

[Minority2]

Thanks for the informative link, and I get the thing about repeated sharing over time, I really do.

My confusion/frustration comes from prescription without description (or factual basis) in this and other reptile forums.

I've been told categorically that: avocado fruit is poisonous, that coconut oil will inhibit my tortoise's ability to uptake uv effectively, that cypress mulch is an unsatisfactory bedding material that will lead to fungal and respiratory problems.

This seems the best source of info I've found online, by far, but still seems plagued by people passing off anecdote as fact, so I'm finding myself looking for backup information more than usual to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Again, thanks,

Jamie

1. All parts of the avocado from the roots to the fruit are known to be toxic to certain animals. While feeding small portions to certain species of tortoises may not visually display any signs of illness, the risk of continually feeding this fruit doesn't really outweigh the negative factors this fruit poses.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/viewplants/?plant=703&c=8

Why do owners want to feed their tortoises avocado? Is there a specific reason?

2. Where did you get the advice about UV rays being inhibited by coconut oil?

3. Why did you get the advice about cypress mulch?

I haven't heard any specific information on fungal or respiratory issues. I do however can confirm the smell and the negative environmental impact associated with using this substrate over others. The price and feel of the substrate is the main reason why I rank cypress mulch lower than coco coir and fine grade orchid/fir bark.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I personally use and have used cypress mulch, and while I can say that it’s not my favorite substrate, it is definitely completely safe to use and does not cause fungal or respiratory problems. Where did you get this information?

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I got the information here and on other tortoise forums in response to posted pictures of my tortoise, his enclosure, or in response to questions.

Jamie

 

[Toddrickfl1]

I personally, (and I'm sure I'll catch flack for this) believe that these artificial UVB sources cause more harm than good in some cases. I don't use UVB lights for any of my Turtles or my Tortoise. The one time I did try a UVB lamp(coil bulb) it was harming my Tortoise. I've kept turtles my whole life and I just try to get them outside for natural sunlight a few hours a week. Of course there is a good 3-4 months in the winter I can't do this but I've never had an issue with MBD or anything else and my animals grow good and healthy? I could be wrong in doing this but it's worked well for me for many years.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I got the information here and on other tortoise forums in response to posted pictures of my tortoise, his enclosure, or in response to questions.

Jamie

I looked through your posts, and I saw nothing about cypress mulch or coconut oil.

I’m assuming you got it from other tortoise forums, or a very old tortoise forum post. Sadly, most other tortoise sites on the internet are riddled with old, outdated information, like “coconut oil blocks uvb”, or “keep sulcatas dry because they’re a desert species”. Unless you got this from an old post, I would not listen to those forums. What other forums did you post on?

 

[TechnoCheese]

I personally, (and I'm sure I'll catch flack for this) believe that these artificial UVB sources cause more harm than good in some cases. I don't use UVB lights for any of my Turtles or my Tortoise. The one time I did try a UVB lamp(coil bulb) it was harming my Tortoise. I've kept turtles my whole life and I just try to get them outside for natural sunlight a few hours a week. Of course there is a good 3-4 months in the winter I can't do this but I've never had an issue with MBD or anything else and my animals grow good and healthy? I could be wrong in doing this but it's worked well for me for many years.

I’ve seen other people do this successfully, too. It seems to be an interesting topic that could warrant some experiments.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I looked through your posts, and I saw nothing about cypress mulch or coconut oil.

I’m assuming you got it from other tortoise forums, or a very old tortoise forum post. Sadly, most other tortoise sites on the internet are riddled with old, outdated information, like “coconut oil blocks uvb”, or “keep sulcatas dry because they’re a desert species”. Unless you got this from an old post, I would not listen to those forums. What other forums did you post on?

I read lots of post/threads here about coconut oil, but also in some groups on FB ... I'm new to keeping a tortoise and was flailing out in all directions for info.



Jamie

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I personally, (and I'm sure I'll catch flack for this) believe that these artificial UVB sources cause more harm than good in some cases. I don't use UVB lights for any of my Turtles or my Tortoise. The one time I did try a UVB lamp(coil bulb) it was harming my Tortoise. I've kept turtles my whole life and I just try to get them outside for natural sunlight a few hours a week. Of course there is a good 3-4 months in the winter I can't do this but I've never had an issue with MBD or anything else and my animals grow good and healthy? I could be wrong in doing this but it's worked well for me for many years.

Thanks for this post ... this is an excellent anecdotal post ... context and experience up front, with your opinion and thoughts afterwards.

Jamie

 

[Minority2]

I personally, (and I'm sure I'll catch flack for this) believe that these artificial UVB sources cause more harm than good in some cases. I don't use UVB lights for any of my Turtles or my Tortoise. The one time I did try a UVB lamp(coil bulb) it was harming my Tortoise. I've kept turtles my whole life and I just try to get them outside for natural sunlight a few hours a week. Of course there is a good 3-4 months in the winter I can't do this but I've never had an issue with MBD or anything else and my animals grow good and healthy? I could be wrong in doing this but it's worked well for me for many years.

You're not the only one. I too dislike using bulbs and heating fixtures. There really isn't anything currently on the market that can really compete against the sun. However, not many people have the luxury to provide their tortoises will enough outdoor time. Many people live in unfavorable regions, work during hours that do not allow them the time to tend to their tortoises, and in properties that do not give them the necessary space for tortoises to thrive in.

Some people still make this work. However, many others, in similar situations, tend to take shortcuts because that's what they're used to doing.

I personally will still recommend UV(B) lighting to people that take their tortoises outside regularly. It's the same reason why I tell people to purchase timers regardless of how reluctant they are to do so. It's because people will make mistakes. They will forget. They can be unprepared. Having a backup brings peace of mind. It becomes invaluable during emergencies.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

You're not the only one. I too dislike using bulbs and heating fixtures. There really isn't anything currently on the market that can really compete against the sun. However, not many people have the luxury to provide their tortoises will enough outdoor time. Many people live in unfavorable regions, work during hours that do not allow them the time to tend to their tortoises, and in properties that do not give them the necessary space for tortoises to thrive in.

Some people still make this work. However, many others, in similar situations, tend to take shortcuts because that's what they're used to doing.

I personally will still recommend UV(B) lighting to people that take their tortoises outside regularly. It's the same reason why I tell people to purchase timers regardless of how reluctant they are to do so. It's because people will make mistakes. They will forget. They can be unprepared. Having a backup brings peace of mind. It becomes invaluable during emergencies.

I currently have my ringer set for 12/12, but have also read about people limiting the light cycle to 4-6 hours on per day ... what are your thoughts on "day length"?

J

 

[Minority2]

I currently have my ringer set for 12/12, but have also read about people limiting the light cycle to 4-6 hours on per day ... what are your thoughts on "day length"?

J

@Markw84 will be able to explain this concept far better than I can.

From my understanding, tortoises can only absorb so much UV(B) at a time. They only absorb as much as they need and the time it takes them to do so is fairly short, a few minutes of their choosing would do it.

People that limit their UV lighting to 4 hours a day do so to lengthen the lifespan of the bulb and to also prevent their tortoises from being overexposed to bulbs that are rated higher than normal UV index ratings. To get accurate UV index ratings one would need to purchase a solarmeter 6.5.

You should also know that the owners that do this also use a separate lighting fixture for ambient lighting. Just because the UV(B) bulb is switched off doesn't mean the majority of the enclosure should not lit during the day.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

J

 

[Tom]

@jsheffield

Jamie,
I understand your frustration about lack of cold hard scientific proof. You are preceded in your quest for real scientific study by many other discerning minds who have asked almost exactly the same question as you have here, and for the same reason. We've discussed and debated this general topic many times here.

Unfortunately, there is no motivation for anyone with the money to pay for a long term, in depth, scientific study on any of these topics. At best we get a little unrelated tid bit here and there and try to extrapolate that evidence to help our tortoises.

What we are left with, with the lack of multi-million dollar studies being pursued in multi-million dollar labs by trained professional scientists paid for their work, is nothing but anecdotes from one hobbyist to another. Its not a perfect system to be sure. Superstitions can be formed, and incorrect conclusions are sometimes jumped to, but with a discerning eye, like yours, quite a few pieces to these puzzles can be gathered. This is the challenge for all new keepers, and also for old time keepers trying to learn new info about new products. Who in the heck do you listen to when one tells you that a cfl will melt your turtle, and another tells you emphatically that they've been using cfl's for years with no issues? Where does this conflict come from? Why isn't there a consensus? Well in this case at least, its because not all of these bulbs cause a problem. Some of them, possibly most of them, are perfectly safe and will not damage tortoise eyes. The problem is that some percentage of them are NOT safe and WILL damage tortoise eyes. The only way to tell one from the other is to put it over your tortoise and see if your tortoise's eyes get burned. Not how I want to proceed with my pets. So I've concluded: Best to not risk it. These are also ineffective UV sources anyway, so its a big risk with little to no benefit, and there are safer ways to light your tortoises and get them some UV. There is no question for me because I have personally witnessed these bulbs doing damage, and eliminated all other variables as possible culprits in the cases I've seen. So here I stand, anecdotally sharing what I've personally seen many times, talked about with my reptile vet friends who see loads of reptile cases, and reached my own conclusion about, trying to discourage the use of an unsafe, ineffective product. Most people thank me and use something else. Some people call me names and conclude I'm an internet idiot who has no idea what he's talking about. You'll have to make that call for yourself. Good luck finding scientific proof to conclude that I'm either an idiot, or a guy with some personal experience that's trying to help. To my knowledge no one has done a study on that topic either.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

@jsheffield

Jamie,
I understand your frustration about lack of cold hard scientific proof. You are preceded in your quest for real scientific study by many other discerning minds who have asked almost exactly the same question as you have here, and for the same reason. We've discussed and debated this general topic many times here.

Unfortunately, there is no motivation for anyone with the money to pay for a long term, in depth, scientific study on any of these topics. At best we get a little unrelated tid bit here and there and try to extrapolate that evidence to help our tortoises.

What we are left with, with the lack of multi-million dollar studies being pursued in multi-million dollar labs by trained professional scientists paid for their work, is nothing but anecdotes from one hobbyist to another. Its not a perfect system to be sure. Superstitions can be formed, and incorrect conclusions are sometimes jumped to, but with a discerning eye, like yours, quite a few pieces to these puzzles can be gathered. This is the challenge for all new keepers, and also for old time keepers trying to learn new info about new products. Who in the heck do you listen to when one tells you that a cfl will melt your turtle, and another tells you emphatically that they've been using cfl's for years with no issues? Where does this conflict come from? Why isn't there a consensus? Well in this case at least, its because not all of these bulbs cause a problem. Some of them, possibly most of them, are perfectly safe and will not damage tortoise eyes. The problem is that some percentage of them are NOT safe and WILL damage tortoise eyes. The only way to tell one from the other is to put it over your tortoise and see if your tortoise's eyes get burned. Not how I want to proceed with my pets. So I've concluded: Best to not risk it. These are also ineffective UV sources anyway, so its a big risk with little to no benefit, and there are safer ways to light your tortoises and get them some UV. There is no question for me because I have personally witnessed these bulbs doing damage, and eliminated all other variables as possible culprits in the cases I've seen. So here I stand, anecdotally sharing what I've personally seen many times, talked about with my reptile vet friends who see loads of reptile cases, and reached my own conclusion about, trying to discourage the use of an unsafe, ineffective product. Most people thank me and use something else. Some people call me names and conclude I'm an internet idiot who has no idea what he's talking about. You'll have to make that call for yourself. Good luck finding scientific proof to conclude that I'm either an idiot, or a guy with some personal experience that's trying to help. To my knowledge no one has done a study on that topic either.

Tom,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! I appreciate the efforts you, and everyone else here on TF, are making in support of keeping our tortoises safe and thriving.

I'm sorry for letting my frustration bleed through in this post (and probably others) ... I'm trying to make sure that I provide the best environment and care profile for Darwin, my Redfoot Tortoise, and struggling to wade through the information available here and in other places around the WWW.

I guess what I need to do is read more, post less, find the optimal voices to listen to, and take some form of weighted average of the available facts, opinions, anecdotes, and information out there.

I'm grateful for the replies and those willing to share their experiences with tortoises.

Thanks,

Jamie

 

[Tom]

Tom,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! I appreciate the efforts you, and everyone else here on TF, are making in support of keeping our tortoises safe and thriving.

I'm sorry for letting my frustration bleed through in this post (and probably others) ... I'm trying to make sure that I provide the best environment and care profile for Darwin, my Redfoot Tortoise, and struggling to wade through the information available here and in other places around the WWW.

I guess what I need to do is read more, post less, find the optimal voices to listen to, and take some form of weighted average of the available facts, opinions, anecdotes, and information out there.

I'm grateful for the replies and those willing to share their experiences with tortoises.

Thanks,

Jamie

No apology necessary. I think your question is completely reasonable and understandable. I ask myself the same question on other forums and other topics. As you noted, it takes time and interaction to realize who to listen to and who seems most credible. The internet gives everyone a voice. That voice might be an emotional 12 year old incorrectly repeating things they've read in the wrong places, or it could be someone like Yvonne, Will, Zovick, Mark W, DeanS, Neal, or so many others here with decades of experience and a reasonable amount of intelligence to back up and explain what they assert. I wish there was more scientific study done on many of these topics, but there simply isn't, and for understandable reasons. I wish Bill Gates would take an interest in chelonians and donate a few million dollars to some long term studies, but no luck with that yet...

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I wish Bill Gates would take an interest in chelonians and donate a few million dollars to some long term studies, but no luck with that yet...

Fingers crossed.

J