I'm a little nervous to reopen this can of worms, lol, but I have a couple of points to make...
In another thread concerning basking temperatures, someone asked who thought that ambient/air temperatures had anything to do with basking temperatures.
*Raises hand*
The reason that I think it has EVERYTHING to do with basking temperatures is based on the delivery of the advice given when someone wants to know what temperature to use for their basking area.
I posted the AIR temperatures of my enclosures for my younger tortoises.
Kevin (kbaker) commented to me that based on my AIR temperatures, that my basking areas are probably hotter than I think. I agree with that statement. The problem here is the difference between AIR temperatures and SURFACE temperatures and the tools used to measure those values.
When someone registers here at the forum and wants to know what the basking area for their Sulcata should be, they are told 120*. So they take their cheap little dial thermometer, stick it to the side of the tank, and adjust the bulb so that it is reading 120*. See the problem here?
Even a good digital thermometer isn't going to give an accurate surface reading, because the material that the thermometer itself is made up of is very different than the material the tortoise is made up of.
So, if the air temp is 120*, what is the temp of the shell of the tortoise? What is the actual goal here?
Here is what I want to do. I want to take some measurements, and I want help doing it. I bought myself a temp gun just for this purpose.
What I want is for the folks that have temp guns to take temperatures in two different ways. I want you to state the type of thermometer you are using, the placement height, and the AIR temperature of the basking area of your enclosure. Then I want measurements of the basking surface AND the tortoise's shell using a temp gun. I want to see what the correlation is. I want to know, how warm does the AIR temp have to be, for the tortoise's shell to be 120*?
I will do my own measurements and post those as well. If we can figure out what the correlation is between air temp and the actual temperature of the tortoise and the basking area, then we can better advise people on temperature based on the equipment they have.
And last but not least...
Keep it civil, people. This is something I am genuinely interested in and something I want to discuss with others, but I will be the first one to shut this puppy down if there is ANY personal name calling or any other form of BS, got that?
In another thread concerning basking temperatures, someone asked who thought that ambient/air temperatures had anything to do with basking temperatures.
*Raises hand*
The reason that I think it has EVERYTHING to do with basking temperatures is based on the delivery of the advice given when someone wants to know what temperature to use for their basking area.
I posted the AIR temperatures of my enclosures for my younger tortoises.
kyryah said:I don't use super hot basking areas myself. My enclosures for my babies run from 80* ambient (Cherryhead) to 95* on the hot side, 80* on the cool side (Sulcata babies.)
It has been a couple of years since I had larger Sulcatas, so I will tell you what I have experienced with my Russians.
During the summer, they are outside 24/7. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.
The ONLY time I see them out in the direct sunlight during the hottest part of the day is if I have the sprinkler on. (This is true for my Redfoots and Hingebacks as well.)
I have taken a bit more "moderate" approach to the humidity issue. My enclosures are humid, but not SUPER humid. They range from 60% to 80%. I have been misting my babies twice a day, and soaking very little, actually. I do however observe each and every one of the babies "self-soaking" in the water dish daily.
My Cherryhead's enclosure is on the higher end of the humidity scale - 80%. His enclosure is a constant 80*. There have been days when I have not misted at all, yet he has a humid hide. This baby is growing as perfect as I could ever hope for. He looks amazing, I am EXTREMELY proud of him.
My little Greek's enclosure is on the lower end of the humidity spectrum. It is about 60%. In the beginning I was raising her on a dry substrate, and misting twice daily. She began to develop pyramiding. I moved her from the open top sweater box into an aquarium, upped the humidity, and gave her a humid hide. She exhibits pyramiding along her vertebral scutes but the rest of her is smooth. I have been misting more and I am hoping she will continue to smooth out. I feel like I failed with her.
My baby Sulcatas have a humid hide that is 99% humidity and 95* inside. The cool side of the enclosure is 80* and ambient humidity is 70%. They spend most of the day in the hide, except when eating or self-soaking in the water dish (which they do, a LOT. They are TOTAL water babies, especially the darker of the two.) There is a heat source over the water dish so it remains warm all the time. I mist them twice daily, morning and night. I have not had them long, but they exhibit new growth and it is coming in smooth.
My Sri Lankan star has a humid hide and her warmest temp is 90*. She also self-soaks and I mist twice daily. Just a few days ago I posted pictures of how smooth she is. I am EXTREMELY proud of her new growth, and also EXTREMELY nervous that I am going to "screw her up."
I just received a little Leopard today. His enclosure and treatment will 100% mimic the Sulcata hatchlings.
I wish I had pictures to back this last up - in 1992 I was given my first tortoise, a Gopher tortoise that was taken out of its habitat and brought back to Michigan. He was 3" long at the time. I raised him in an aquarium that was 90* on the warm side and 80* on the cool. I used plain old yard dirt for substrate and planted grass directly in it. His hide was one of those long terra cotta wine chillers. I would take it out every couple of days and soak it in warm water, and I also misted him once every day or so.
I had him for ten years. He grew to be 10" and 19lbs. One night in 2002, a predator broke into his outdoor enclosure and killed him. I cried, HARD. I was so devastated, and I still am. I miss my Gomer terribly.
When Gomer died, he was just as smooth as any wild counter part I have ever seen. I lost all of my photos of him (and my beloved Lab, Sammy, another story) in a house fire. But I swear on everything I hold holy that what I am saying is the truth.
So, that is MY take on "moderation." I am going to continue working with my hatchlings and continue learning.
Kevin (kbaker) commented to me that based on my AIR temperatures, that my basking areas are probably hotter than I think. I agree with that statement. The problem here is the difference between AIR temperatures and SURFACE temperatures and the tools used to measure those values.
When someone registers here at the forum and wants to know what the basking area for their Sulcata should be, they are told 120*. So they take their cheap little dial thermometer, stick it to the side of the tank, and adjust the bulb so that it is reading 120*. See the problem here?
Even a good digital thermometer isn't going to give an accurate surface reading, because the material that the thermometer itself is made up of is very different than the material the tortoise is made up of.
So, if the air temp is 120*, what is the temp of the shell of the tortoise? What is the actual goal here?
Here is what I want to do. I want to take some measurements, and I want help doing it. I bought myself a temp gun just for this purpose.
What I want is for the folks that have temp guns to take temperatures in two different ways. I want you to state the type of thermometer you are using, the placement height, and the AIR temperature of the basking area of your enclosure. Then I want measurements of the basking surface AND the tortoise's shell using a temp gun. I want to see what the correlation is. I want to know, how warm does the AIR temp have to be, for the tortoise's shell to be 120*?
I will do my own measurements and post those as well. If we can figure out what the correlation is between air temp and the actual temperature of the tortoise and the basking area, then we can better advise people on temperature based on the equipment they have.
And last but not least...
Keep it civil, people. This is something I am genuinely interested in and something I want to discuss with others, but I will be the first one to shut this puppy down if there is ANY personal name calling or any other form of BS, got that?